GCSB Protest March

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2886 posts

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#878315 14-Aug-2013 19:32

Klipspringer:

IMO its perfectly acceptable for government to be above the law.

OK, now I'm worried. On the off-chance that you are serious and not just trying to wind us up, that's a truly alarming statement to make.

You seem to have a view that we are a democracy therefore whoever is in government should be able to do whatever they deem necessary, and they will always be benevolent so it's in our own interests, so we should just shut up and accept it.

The weight of history is against you on this one. Generally for sustained prosperity and wellbeing, you need property rights, the rule of law, and accountable government. Otherwise, no matter how well intentioned things may start out, the executive eventually descends into cronyism and corruption, with the coercive powers of the state being used against those the government is trying to serve. As well as being socially repressive, the weight of evidence is that once such a country has climbed to a certain point of prosperity, this type of environment also delivers sub-par economic growth as well.

As I have asked before, why are you living here?

Your posts here and elsewhere essentially state that the best environment for you and your family would be delivered by a totalitarian government that is above the law, has no regard for privacy as that only matters for those who "have something to hide", and aggressively censors the internet "to protect the children".

There are plenty of countries other than NZ that offer the socially progressive policies that you advocate. Iran, Dubai, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Belarus and Zimbabwe spring to mind. Egypt, the Sudan, Pakistan, and the Congo also seem to offer most of what you hanker for.

Instead of railing against NZers who are quite keen to preserve a liberal democracy, privacy and their way of life, why not just move to one of these "enlightened" countries that offers the social policies you want so badly?

freitasm

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#878333 14-Aug-2013 20:03

The Law Society submission.

P1n3apqlExpr3ss

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#878344 14-Aug-2013 20:10

John Key kept on bringing up the Norton Antivirus analogy on Campbell Live, what was with that?

Woolly

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#878354 14-Aug-2013 20:24

I agree with Geektastic's point.

My view the spying has been going for decades, as time goes by, it will get more invasive.

The GCSB bill is a small cog in a much larger system.

The system is about controlling the many by a few.

tl;dr; // below be dragons

Anyone looking for a quick fix solution - there is not a quick fix.

If you find some link interesting pass it onto friends and family. It might be crap (look up crap it's quite interesting) or disinfo. It starts a dialog where you can start looking for the truth.

Thrive, OPPT, Zeitgeist the new age ideas are interesting I hope people look at different points of view.

Feudalism didn't die, it just renewed itself in a different cloak.

The words Fee Simple Title and Alodial Title are worth researching.

Also Diggers/Levelers http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/levellers.htm

The Left/Right paradigm is just divide and conquer. Business can't survive without workers, Business Managers are workers, workers can go into business for them selves. The real question is who wants to take the risk/responsibility?

For those of you working for others, you are the business, and if some process isn't right say something. Don't bitch and moan about it in the staff room. Think about it for awhile, write down and discuss your ideas to fix it then approach your supervisor. One progressive company I know paid 10% of the cost saving to the employee for ideas that lowered costs. If your idea is so great, make your business solving and selling to fix that problem.

Klipspringer

2385 posts

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#878421 14-Aug-2013 22:23

JimmyH:
Klipspringer:

IMO its perfectly acceptable for government to be above the law.

OK, now I'm worried. On the off-chance that you are serious and not just trying to wind us up, that's a truly alarming statement to make.

I should actually reword my post because reading it again it sure does sound a little extreme. ..Was not meant as a wind up.

"IMO I think its perfectly acceptable for government to be above the law if required to protect the citizens of the country" I really did not imply it an every day sort of activity.

But as alarming as it sounds. There are many cases where the government will need to act above the law to protect the people of NZ (cases like extreme terrorism, war etc ...) I don't believe its possible in such extreme circumstances for the government to protect the citizens of NZ while at the same time stay within the law. Use your imagination here .... its just not possible.

JimmyH:
You seem to have a view that we are a democracy therefore whoever is in government should be able to do whatever they deem necessary, and they will always be benevolent so it's in our own interests, so we should just shut up and accept it.

The weight of history is against you on this one. Generally for sustained prosperity and wellbeing, you need property rights, the rule of law, and accountable government. Otherwise, no matter how well intentioned things may start out, the executive eventually descends into cronyism and corruption, with the coercive powers of the state being used against those the government is trying to serve. As well as being socially repressive, the weight of evidence is that once such a country has climbed to a certain point of prosperity, this type of environment also delivers sub-par economic growth as well.

We are in a democracy, a very good one in fact. Government is put here by the people. All people have to do if they don't agree is to not vote for the government. A democracy will never satisfy the needs/wants of a minority. If the GCSB is really such a bad thing, don't worry about it. Vote for another government next time.

Government is already above the law because it has the power to change the law. Is there really a difference?

This law will be implemented. The only difference is that in a few weeks time is the "legal" aspect of it. It becomes law.

JimmyH:

Your posts here and elsewhere essentially state that the best environment for you and your family would be delivered by a totalitarian government that is above the law, has no regard for privacy as that only matters for those who "have something to hide", and aggressively censors the internet "to protect the children".

Sounds like you jumping to conclusions. Go read my posts again. Im just giving my opinion that I think its perfectly OK for the government to act outside the law if it needs to, and if it involves protecting the citizens of NZ. Im not implying that the government get some super power to do what they like. There is a difference.

Surely the protection and security of the citizens of NZ is the number 1 priority the government has? (can you think of anything more important?). Now if protecting and securing the people involves breaking a few laws, then I am perfectly OK with it.

JimmyH: There are plenty of countries other than NZ that offer the socially progressive policies that you advocate. Iran, Dubai, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Belarus and Zimbabwe spring to mind. Egypt, the Sudan, Pakistan, and the Congo also seem to offer most of what you hanker for.

I'm not hankering for anything. NZ has a democracy and that is what will protect it from all the crap that happens in those other countries. All of those countries listed have failed miserably with democracy.

JimmyH: Instead of railing against NZers who are quite keen to preserve a liberal democracy, privacy and their way of life, why not just move to one of these "enlightened" countries that offers the social policies you want so badly?

Interesting that you mention protect a "liberal " democracy?

Surely the important word here is "democracy"? But you specifically said protect a liberal democracy?

A conservative democracy will be just as good as a liberal democracy? Yes?

At the end of the day I'm just raising an opinion. I Love New Zealand. Love the freedom here. Love the fact that I am living in a true democracy (apart from the Maori seats in parliament LOL). I'm not hankering at having anything taken away. I'm simply giving an opinion on making it a better place.

Geektastic

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#878438 14-Aug-2013 22:38

JimmyH:
Klipspringer:

IMO its perfectly acceptable for government to be above the law.

OK, now I'm worried. On the off-chance that you are serious and not just trying to wind us up, that's a truly alarming statement to make.

You seem to have a view that we are a democracy therefore whoever is in government should be able to do whatever they deem necessary, and they will always be benevolent so it's in our own interests, so we should just shut up and accept it.

The weight of history is against you on this one. Generally for sustained prosperity and wellbeing, you need property rights, the rule of law, and accountable government. Otherwise, no matter how well intentioned things may start out, the executive eventually descends into cronyism and corruption, with the coercive powers of the state being used against those the government is trying to serve. As well as being socially repressive, the weight of evidence is that once such a country has climbed to a certain point of prosperity, this type of environment also delivers sub-par economic growth as well.

As I have asked before, why are you living here?

Your posts here and elsewhere essentially state that the best environment for you and your family would be delivered by a totalitarian government that is above the law, has no regard for privacy as that only matters for those who "have something to hide", and aggressively censors the internet "to protect the children".

There are plenty of countries other than NZ that offer the socially progressive policies that you advocate. Iran, Dubai, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Belarus and Zimbabwe spring to mind. Egypt, the Sudan, Pakistan, and the Congo also seem to offer most of what you hanker for.

Instead of railing against NZers who are quite keen to preserve a liberal democracy, privacy and their way of life, why not just move to one of these "enlightened" countries that offers the social policies you want so badly?

As the great Winston Churchill remarked, the best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter...

Woolly

119 posts

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#878442 14-Aug-2013 22:48

Many thanks for your post Klipspringer.

What experiences have you had that would bring you to your conclusions?

People go thru different experiences so some peoples views may seem foreign to others that haven't been thru the same experience.

For example someone was stopped at the lights with the window down and a hand was severed to steal their watch. They lived.

For Geektastic unless your super human the average voter is you and me.

Quic Broadband

Move to New Zealand's best fibre broadband service (affiliate link). Free setup code: R587125ERQ6VE. Note that to use Quic Broadband you must be comfortable with configuring your own router.

Geektastic

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#878446 14-Aug-2013 22:51

Woolly: Many thanks for your post Klipspringer.

What experiences have you had that would bring you to your conclusions?

People go thru different experiences so some peoples views may seem foreign to others that haven't been thru the same experience.

For example someone was stopped at the lights with the window down and a hand was severed to steal their watch. They lived.

For Geektastic unless your super human the average voter is you and me.

Not super human no. But somewhat brighter than the average voter in terms of IQ at least and with a far better education than the average one as well. Indeed, aside from the same number of arms and legs etc I have very little in common with the 'average' voter if I am honest.

turnin

509 posts

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#878449 14-Aug-2013 22:57

Listening to newstalkzb tonight was interesting. Kerre McVeigh(woodham) believes that callers who stated american agencies have access to nz'ers emails are just paranoid and reading too many misinformation websites. Which brings me to my point about democracy. The media ultimately control public opinion. Ive seen 2 classic cases this year where they have taken a side on an issue and most definitely censored comments so that those with another opinion or have information simply can't get info to the public. Incredible bias. So democracy is great if journalists are able to get all the facts to the public. Despite this information age most people will vote according to who is made to look good by the media.

Woolly

119 posts

Master Geek
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#878450 14-Aug-2013 23:01

Geektastic hopefully you'll be able to answer the following question:

Is Government greater than Man?

or

Is Man greater than Government?

Geektastic

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#878454 14-Aug-2013 23:23

I would say it depends on the circumstances.

Generally the latter because man IS government. If I shoot every member of a government including the elected representatives and all the government staff, what is left but empty buildings? (Sidebar: that sentence should have our friends in the NSA busy for a while!)

The construct of 'government' however must sometimes take precedence over man in order to deliver what those who elect it have asked for - at least if you believe in democracy it must.

I'm not 100% convinced by democracy myself: it gives votes to idiots, which is a bad thing. The modern world is far too complex and the cost of rectifying economic mistakes far too great for people who can barely string a sentence together to be allowed an equal say in what happens. At the very least, a 'Voting Licence' should be required, for which you must sit a test to demonstrate a reasonable grasp of economics, foreign policy and so on. Passing a more stringent version of the licence test should be required before you can stand for election, too.

Benign dictatorship is the most efficient form of government with the best outcomes in theory, but ensuring the benign nature of the dictator is very hard!

PaulBags

809 posts

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#878458 14-Aug-2013 23:38

Klipspringer: the law can be, and in some cases already is, written to extend extraordinary powers under extraordinary circumstances. No need at all to break the law. That's not what the GCSB bill is about. The GCSB bill would give powers 24/7.

As for democracy being simply about just voting for a different person next time, your dead wrong. Sure, that's what most people do. But a functional democracy requires that people get at least somewhat involved. People can talk politics, make submissions on bills, communicate with any member of parliament; or even enter the political realm themselves. Indeed if it were not for people getting actively involved in democracy there wouldn't be anyone to vote for. Frankly our participation rates even just for voting are already disturbing.

Woolly

119 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user

#878461 15-Aug-2013 00:03

Geektastic

Benign dictatorship seems like a practical idea but who chooses the dictator?

Here's an Irish idea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZBnpRAx9ug

Turnin is correct.

SaltyNZ

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#878497 15-Aug-2013 07:24

turnin: Listening to newstalkzb tonight was interesting. Kerre McVeigh(woodham) believes that callers who stated american agencies have access to nz'ers emails are just paranoid and reading too many misinformation websites. Which brings me to my point about democracy. The media ultimately control public opinion. Ive seen 2 classic cases this year where they have taken a side on an issue and most definitely censored comments so that those with another opinion or have information simply can't get info to the public. Incredible bias. So democracy is great if journalists are able to get all the facts to the public. Despite this information age most people will vote according to who is made to look good by the media.

I've listened to her show a few times. Is she still on the late slot? It's good for a laugh. UFOs, goddamn immigrants and/or Maori and/or pakeha stealing all our jobs and/or university positions and/or not speaking our language, fluoride is the government's way of controlling your brain. Yeah, I can understand why she might think the spying stuff is over hyped: she probably heard it a million times before it was confirmed to be real. :-)

Note to self: create a random conspiracy theory generator, call Kerrie McVeigh to explain it.

iPad Pro 11" + iPhone 15 Pro Max + 2degrees 4tw!

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

Geektastic

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#878566 15-Aug-2013 09:40

turnin: Listening to newstalkzb tonight was interesting. Kerre McVeigh(woodham) believes that callers who stated american agencies have access to nz'ers emails are just paranoid and reading too many misinformation websites. Which brings me to my point about democracy. The media ultimately control public opinion. Ive seen 2 classic cases this year where they have taken a side on an issue and most definitely censored comments so that those with another opinion or have information simply can't get info to the public. Incredible bias. So democracy is great if journalists are able to get all the facts to the public. Despite this information age most people will vote according to who is made to look good by the media.

Of course if you are concerned, you can circumvent the vast resources of the NSA for only $5! Yes - just send $5 to me and you will receive by return your guaranteed NSA-proof communication system as follows:

1) A pad of excellent lined A4 paper
2) A pack of 20 envelopes!
3) A First Class stamp
4) A ballpoint pen

Also included - at no extra charge - are detailed instructions on how to write a letter and use the analogue postal system!

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