Should New Zealand citizenship be for sale?

Forums › Off topic › Should New Zealand citizenship be for sale?

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#1714512 2-Feb-2017 15:11

Geektastic:

Fred99:

The folks who argue that stateless refugees be offered no charity seem to be the same people arguing that they have "no issue" with citizenship for sale.

One you get a benefit from, the other not so much. Seems perfectly logical to me.

The person being discussed here was granted citizenship, justified (at least) partly because of his philanthropy/charitable acts.

If we're (NZ) granting privilege to people because they're charitable, wouldn't it be hypocrisy to argue against offering charity yourself to the most under-privileged?

Are you saying that charity is a bad idea - unless you get a return?

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#1714513 2-Feb-2017 15:16

Rikkitic:

Geektastic:

Thiel did not turn up, write a cheque and collect citizenship.

Why did he need citizenship, since he already had the benefits of residency? Why did the authorities feel it was justified, since he was already an investor? What was gained by it since he had no intention of living here? To me it feels like someone collecting baubles, and being allowed to because he was wealthy. I don't understand what the justification was.

One could reverse this and say why shouldn't he have citizenship?

what affect does this decision have on you or me?

What is the concern about this decision as opposed to granting to Marry and Bill from England or Valdemar and Ada from Denmark?

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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#1714522 2-Feb-2017 15:25

MikeB4:

Rikkitic:

Geektastic:

Thiel did not turn up, write a cheque and collect citizenship.

Why did he need citizenship, since he already had the benefits of residency? Why did the authorities feel it was justified, since he was already an investor? What was gained by it since he had no intention of living here? To me it feels like someone collecting baubles, and being allowed to because he was wealthy. I don't understand what the justification was.

One could reverse this and say why shouldn't he have citizenship?

what affect does this decision have on you or me?

What is the concern about this decision as opposed to granting to Marry and Bill from England or Valdemar and Ada from Denmark?

An exception was made, and circumstances deemed exceptional. Unfortunately why his case was exceptional is open for interpretation.

Rikkitic

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#1714526 2-Feb-2017 15:36

MikeB4:

What is the concern about this decision as opposed to granting to Marry and Bill from England or Valdemar and Ada from Denmark?

At least Mary and Bill and Valdemar and Ada actually want to live here, but no, I am not that concerned about it. As often happens with these threads, the focus ended up somewhere different than it started out. I just thought it was worth discussing how citizenship gets handed out and I guess that is what we have done.

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#1714912 3-Feb-2017 12:10

Fred99:

Geektastic:

Fred99:

The folks who argue that stateless refugees be offered no charity seem to be the same people arguing that they have "no issue" with citizenship for sale.

One you get a benefit from, the other not so much. Seems perfectly logical to me.

The person being discussed here was granted citizenship, justified (at least) partly because of his philanthropy/charitable acts.

If we're (NZ) granting privilege to people because they're charitable, wouldn't it be hypocrisy to argue against offering charity yourself to the most under-privileged?

Are you saying that charity is a bad idea - unless you get a return?

Generally yes - but it certainly does begin at home. I also think refugee status should be a temporary thing whilst a specific issue is resolved and that people should, in general, be returned whence they came as soon as possible unless they have applied for and been given Permanent Residency etc in the normal way on the same merits as anyone else.

networkn

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#1714913 3-Feb-2017 12:12

I know this is off-topic, but where are our refugees housed when they are here? Is there a holding facility?

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MikeB4

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#1714915 3-Feb-2017 12:14

networkn:

I know this is off-topic, but where are our refugees housed when they are here? Is there a holding facility?

There is a Refugee centre in Mangere

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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#1714923 3-Feb-2017 12:20

Geektastic:
Of course. No problem and anyone who applies for citizenship this way still has to pass the usual background checks, health checks and so on.

The only difference is that they do not need to prove that they have a job or useful skills - which, given that they already have a heap of money is hardly necessary.

Why would you not want to bring entrepreneurial people and wealthy people to NZ? We have to get the income of the nation up somehow and whatever we've been doing for the last 150 years has hardly achieved a lot in that respect. We still have far too much of the tax burden falling on too few people.

The answer is: does he pay tax?

networkn

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#1714924 3-Feb-2017 12:20

MikeB4:

networkn:

I know this is off-topic, but where are our refugees housed when they are here? Is there a holding facility?

There is a Refugee centre in Mangere

How long do they stay there and what happens when they leave?

MikeB4

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#1714929 3-Feb-2017 12:28

networkn:

MikeB4:

networkn:

I know this is off-topic, but where are our refugees housed when they are here? Is there a holding facility?

There is a Refugee centre in Mangere

How long do they stay there and what happens when they leave?

It has been a while since I was involved but the average stay was 6 weeks then community based groups continued the education, job placement and on going support. The goal to get the new Kiwis integrated in our society as quickly as possible but not rushed and not left alone.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

networkn

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#1714931 3-Feb-2017 12:30

MikeB4:

networkn:

MikeB4:

networkn:

I know this is off-topic, but where are our refugees housed when they are here? Is there a holding facility?

There is a Refugee centre in Mangere

How long do they stay there and what happens when they leave?

It has been a while since I was involved but the average stay was 6 weeks then community based groups continued the education, job placement and on going support. The goal to get the new Kiwis integrated in our society as quickly as possible but not rushed and not left alone.

Are security and background checks done during this time? Are all refugees accepted into our country put into society?

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frankv

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#1714932 3-Feb-2017 12:34

Geektastic:

I also think refugee status should be a temporary thing whilst a specific issue is resolved and that people should, in general, be returned whence they came as soon as possible unless they have applied for and been given Permanent Residency etc in the normal way on the same merits as anyone else.

This would be fine if the problem causing people to become refugees was temporary. However, when your homeland is currently being turned to rubble, then being returned to it isn't an option. Similarly if you'll be killed by the regime in power there.

MikeB4

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#1714933 3-Feb-2017 12:34

networkn:

Are security and background checks done during this time? Are all refugees accepted into our country put into society?

We take our refugees from international refugee operations through the UN. There is extensive checks and vetting done well before anyone reaches our border. The reality is we do not take large numbers as our resources are not great.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Linuxluver

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#1714935 3-Feb-2017 12:45

Rikkitic:

There has been a lot of flack about the granting of New Zealand citizenship to American billionaire Peter Thiel, who apparently has little connection to this country. The critics say he has been allowed to buy citizenship by making some big investments and donations. His supporters, such as Rod Drury and Sam Morgan, say more wealthy entrepreneurial foreigners like Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg should be encouraged to do the same as their investments create jobs and benefit all of us. In other words, they should get special treatment because they are special people.

So is this a good idea or not? Should New Zealand citizenship be for sale to those with enough money and skills, while everyone else has to wait in line and jump through hoops? Are we on the way to a new upper class to which we doff our caps and touch our forelocks?

Edit: Forgot the link

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/323610/thiel-citzenship-'absolutely'-good-for-nz-drury

No. Not if you haven't lived here for most of 5 years.....like everyone else.

As it is, anyone with 2 million dollars can get residence as a business investor more or less without any issues provided they are of good character and can show the money isn't borrowed or obtained via dubious means. But they still have to come here and live here for 5 years before they can become ciitizens.

Selling citizenships to billionaires who don't even live here is asking for trouble....and what does it say about the government that does it? I've felt for many years the party currently in government shuold be renamed the "Multi-National Trucking and Farmer Party".....because that's who serve best.

The rest of us just get in the way and get called 'rent-a-crowd' if we object.

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Linuxluver

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#1714937 3-Feb-2017 12:50

MikeB4:

networkn:

How long do they stay there and what happens when they leave?

It has been a while since I was involved but the average stay was 6 weeks then community based groups continued the education, job placement and on going support. The goal to get the new Kiwis integrated in our society as quickly as possible but not rushed and not left alone.

Yes. They arrive in batches from UN refugee camps...and are processed at Mangere. They attend classes about life in NZ. Various support groups and agencies do try to provide ongoing support. Much of this is voluntary.

A smooth landing makes sure people don't get into trouble later....and if they do, they have someone to call for help. Mistakes happen.

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