Legalise Marijuana?

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MikeB4
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#1691050 16-Dec-2016 12:51

Fred99:

MikeB4:

I am certain I did not refer to behaviour being passed on.

You did actually:

MikeB4: My Son is a Psychologist so knows a bit about this. I was chatting with him during the week and his reaction is an absolute no. The damage it causes is not a myth and he was saying that the damage is generational. In other words given to off spring, So it is not an individuals decisions.

That does not say behavioural but some of the conditions resulting will affect behaviour

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Fred99

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#1691057 16-Dec-2016 13:00

MikeB4:

Fred99:

MikeB4:

I am certain I did not refer to behaviour being passed on.

You did actually:

MikeB4: My Son is a Psychologist so knows a bit about this. I was chatting with him during the week and his reaction is an absolute no. The damage it causes is not a myth and he was saying that the damage is generational. In other words given to off spring, So it is not an individuals decisions.

That does not say behavioural but some of the conditions resulting will affect behaviour

Coffee affects my behaviour. I have no idea if that could be intergenerational. I suspect that it actually could be, diet could be, and that makes extremely good sense from an evolutionary adaptation POV. Same with other environmental factors in early childhood or during gestation, "turning on" genes that affect behaviour.

Geektastic

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#1691060 16-Dec-2016 13:06

Being an alcoholic has intergenerational effects. Society has decided alcohol is fine. Until the early 20th century, cannabis was also fine.

Fred99

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#1691067 16-Dec-2016 13:19

Geektastic:

Being an alcoholic has intergenerational effects. Society has decided alcohol is fine. Until the early 20th century, cannabis was also fine.

In the early 20th century Bayer was selling this as a "non-addictive morphine substitute and cough suppressant":

The world is full of examples of medical mistakes / unintended consequences.

Despite examples like above, I believe that the "war on drugs" is one of the biggest ones.

MikeB4

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#1691077 16-Dec-2016 13:30

Yes the current way of dealing with drugs has not been a complete success that does not mean you open the flood gates and legalised it.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Geektastic

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#1691091 16-Dec-2016 14:07

MikeB4: Yes the current way of dealing with drugs has not been a complete success that does not mean you open the flood gates and legalised it.

Not sure that legalising weed - which is already happening in the most anti-drugs country I can think of, the USA - constitutes opening the floodgates. More a rational approach to the issue rather than a puritan, emotional one.

I suspect that when it finally happens, it will be like so many other similar societal changes - a year or two later, everyone will be wondering what the fuss was about.

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Rikkitic

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#1691095 16-Dec-2016 14:17

MikeB4: Yes the current way of dealing with drugs has not been a complete success that does not mean you open the flood gates and legalised it.

I don't want to open the floodgates. Instead, I would like to see them cautiously nudged a little, a bit at a time, with careful study of the result, while also taking account of overseas experiences. But in order to do that, there first has to be a mentality shift on the part of authorities.

The experience with legal highs was a disaster because they were initially allowed with no controls, and because marijuana wasn't treated the same. A result was that a lot of foolish young people who otherwise might have chosen pot went instead for the much worse chemical 'legal' alternatives, with predictable results.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Geektastic

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#1691104 16-Dec-2016 14:39

Here's an example from today's Herald of just how much money is wasted on cannabis control:

"The operation involved 45 Counties Manukau officers together with staff from the police's national organised crime group.

More than 500 cannabis plants were seized on the day and have since been destroyed."

If you say that the gross cost of running a Police officer (training, equipment, office space, vehicle costs and so forth as well as salary etc) is $1000 a day then every day they worked on that job cost $45,000 to the tax payer.

Let's assume they worked 10 days on the job so $450,000.

That means that each destroyed plant cost the tax payer $900 to achieve.

Alternatively we could have taxed the retail value of that weed at say 15% duty plus 15% GST and the taxpayer could have made money.

The internet tells me that 150g per plant is possible, so 200 times 150 is 30,000g. Further the internet tells me that weed costs about $50 per 3g.

This gives us a total gross of $500,000 taxed at 30% gives the taxpayer $150,000 income.

So, we paid out $450,000 in one instance and could have received $150,000 in the other....and used the police resource for other things.

Of course the figures are pretty ballpark but the present course of action just looks ineffective and expensive to boot. The cannabis supply in NZ will not even notice the loss of the 200 plants in this raid, so really not much was achieved other than the enforcement of a law almost for the sake of it.

JayADee

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#1691128 16-Dec-2016 15:20

If there was a referendum I'm not sure if I would vote for legalisation but I would for decriminalisation at least.

I worry primarily about youngsters as there is some proof marijuana increases the chance of schizophrenia in youths and long term use is possibly addictive and also ruins your liver (and if you are smoking it of course your lungs). Yes I know the damage alcohol and cigarettes do, I am not a big fan of those either.

I think education like with smoking and alcohol is a better option. The Life Trust Education Trust van has a pretty decent drug education programme for Year 7-8 students but it needs to be started earlier and reinforced more I think.

Fred99

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#1691137 16-Dec-2016 15:41

Geektastic:

Of course the figures are pretty ballpark but the present course of action just looks ineffective and expensive to boot. The cannabis supply in NZ will not even notice the loss of the 200 plants in this raid, so really not much was achieved other than the enforcement of a law almost for the sake of it.

There's another side to that too, particularly with harder drugs, where dependant users will get involved in criminal behaviour to get money to pay the black-market price for the drugs they need. That might be burglarising your house to steal your Macbook and grandmother's jewellery, it might be holding up a convenience store, stealing from an employer. we're all paying for it through increased insurance costs, increased need for policing (which based on performance in apprehending thieves - is vastly inadequate). It may mean not feeding or looking after their children properly - the long term consequences of that are horrific. It probably means that when you do need a policeman, there isn't one available as they're under-resourced due in part to putting so much effort into the "war on drugs".

Then of course all of that money ends up in the hands of criminals, enjoying the massive profits, living the high life at our expense. Although convictions against corrupt police being involved with gangsters in this trade in NZ are few, overseas experience suggests that's probably underestimated.

I think there's a belief that seizures probably account for about 20% of total trade, that including seizures where there's nobody apprehended. Of course it's a guess - they can't really know. It will be $billions. The aussies did some tests analysing levels of metabolites from methamphetamine in municipal sewerage, finding that $2 billion worth of methamphetamine alone was used each year in Perth, that there had been a 500% increase in meth use in Queensland between 2009 and 2016. Why don't we do this in NZ? I'm confident the results would be shocking - and an indictment on the abject inadequacy of the policies we're using in "the war".

The focus on war on drugs quite rightly demonised production/distribution. But it never really addressed the need to control demand and "cut the water off" by taking the profits out of the business.

Even if they legalised (as opposed to decriminalised) the whole business, and government stepped in and supplied and taxed drugs supplied to users, undercutting black markets, but doing nothing else to help/support users we'd all be much better off.

MikeB4

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#1691204 16-Dec-2016 19:11

One thing I should say. I am not against medicinal cannabis if it is tested and treated and controlled the same way as any other medication.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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Geektastic

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#1691319 16-Dec-2016 23:48

Fred99:

Geektastic:

Of course the figures are pretty ballpark but the present course of action just looks ineffective and expensive to boot. The cannabis supply in NZ will not even notice the loss of the 200 plants in this raid, so really not much was achieved other than the enforcement of a law almost for the sake of it.

There's another side to that too, particularly with harder drugs, where dependant users will get involved in criminal behaviour to get money to pay the black-market price for the drugs they need. That might be burglarising your house to steal your Macbook and grandmother's jewellery, it might be holding up a convenience store, stealing from an employer. we're all paying for it through increased insurance costs, increased need for policing (which based on performance in apprehending thieves - is vastly inadequate). It may mean not feeding or looking after their children properly - the long term consequences of that are horrific. It probably means that when you do need a policeman, there isn't one available as they're under-resourced due in part to putting so much effort into the "war on drugs".

Then of course all of that money ends up in the hands of criminals, enjoying the massive profits, living the high life at our expense. Although convictions against corrupt police being involved with gangsters in this trade in NZ are few, overseas experience suggests that's probably underestimated.

I think there's a belief that seizures probably account for about 20% of total trade, that including seizures where there's nobody apprehended. Of course it's a guess - they can't really know. It will be $billions. The aussies did some tests analysing levels of metabolites from methamphetamine in municipal sewerage, finding that $2 billion worth of methamphetamine alone was used each year in Perth, that there had been a 500% increase in meth use in Queensland between 2009 and 2016. Why don't we do this in NZ? I'm confident the results would be shocking - and an indictment on the abject inadequacy of the policies we're using in "the war".

The focus on war on drugs quite rightly demonised production/distribution. But it never really addressed the need to control demand and "cut the water off" by taking the profits out of the business.

Even if they legalised (as opposed to decriminalised) the whole business, and government stepped in and supplied and taxed drugs supplied to users, undercutting black markets, but doing nothing else to help/support users we'd all be much better off.

Yes indeed. Also, if weed is legal, you won't need to come into contact with the crims who might try and push more damaging drugs as a money spinner. If you can buy it in the Off Licence with a box of beers on the way home on Friday after work, tinny houses will cease to be relevant to most users.

blakamin

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#1691491 17-Dec-2016 18:05

Hammerer:

That's why I wouldn't rank the issue of legalising marijuana use in the top 100 pressing issues although I do think that the negative impact of marijuana use is in the top 100 pressing issues. In particular, the negative impact on children and young people is a very real concern for me.

It IS a pressing issue... How many people are in jail because of it? How many families broken up?

What about the real negative impact on children & young people when their parents get locked up because they've "enjoyed" the "evil" weed and been caught? Normally low income families that can't afford a good lawyer.

Considering the prevalence of cannabis AND alcohol, and their drain on society, it's a MAJOR ISSUE!

And before you say "well, they shouldn't do illegal drugs then" you have to realise a good bottle of wine costs more than a "tinny" and alcohol probably breaks up more families per year (if you take "jail for illegal use of cannabis" out of the equation).

Alcohol causes waaay more issues, but it's legal.

I'm off to have a beer (I haven't smoked weed since I was 21).

Geektastic

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#1691605 17-Dec-2016 23:34

blakamin:

Hammerer:

That's why I wouldn't rank the issue of legalising marijuana use in the top 100 pressing issues although I do think that the negative impact of marijuana use is in the top 100 pressing issues. In particular, the negative impact on children and young people is a very real concern for me.

It IS a pressing issue... How many people are in jail because of it? How many families broken up?

What about the real negative impact on children & young people when their parents get locked up because they've "enjoyed" the "evil" weed and been caught? Normally low income families that can't afford a good lawyer.

Considering the prevalence of cannabis AND alcohol, and their drain on society, it's a MAJOR ISSUE!

And before you say "well, they shouldn't do illegal drugs then" you have to realise a good bottle of wine costs more than a "tinny" and alcohol probably breaks up more families per year (if you take "jail for illegal use of cannabis" out of the equation).

Alcohol causes waaay more issues, but it's legal.

I'm off to have a beer (I haven't smoked weed since I was 21).

You might have been 21 just last weekend...!

blakamin

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#1691744 18-Dec-2016 13:30

Geektastic:

You might have been 21 just last weekend...!

I wish!!! That was over half a lifetime away!

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