IN or OUT? All on in the UK for the next 10 weeks.

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#1535464 19-Apr-2016 11:24

Fred99:

Interesting interactive poll here in The Economist - showing how close it is.

So, if you're old, conservative, poorly educated, you're more likely to favour brexit. No surprise there.

Not much difference in polling for women/men, slightly more in favour of brexit from North of England - Scotland firmly in favour of staying.

Old or conservative or poorly educated rather than all three.

It bears out my earlier point that those not old enough to recall Britain being an independent country favour staying in, largely I am sure because the alternative is an unknown quantity for them, having never known anything but diktats from their Euro Commissars.

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#1535467 19-Apr-2016 11:26

roobarb:
PhantomNVD:

gotta call BS on that...

HOW is it "better for the people" for the UK to stay?

Better for WHICH people? UK citizens, or EU immigrants?

If living and working in another country is an alien concept to you, or the only immigrants you meet have stolen the jobs you refuse to do, or your only holiday abroad was ruined by not being able to get Fish and Chips and Watney's Red Barrel then BREXIT is for you.

Of course the worst thing about all this EU integration is you can't tell they are foreigners until they speak to you in perfect English with an eastern European accent.

BREXIT also means end of right of UK citizens to easily live and work in the rest of EU.

You're so closed to other opinions it's almost funny..

As I've lived, worked and aquired citizenship in a total of four countries so far, it's very familiar concept to me... But I had to EARN my way in each time (lol, except the first one, I was born in Zimbabwe)

I have holiday'd in the 'old' EU, on a schengen visa (as I was RSA passport at the time) and I had to show EVERY night where I would stay and have prebooked proof of the entire 3 months I was to be away.
Another time I had to fly to Switzerland for a 3-day ski holiday as my 'green mamba' passport prevented me travelling with my Fiancé on the 2 week bus tour she took to get there with friends.

Anyone who says all foreigners speak perfect English has never lived in Newham, East London, where 257 different 'home' languages are registered. I worked as a primary school teacher for 4 years at a 'landing zone' school, where the year we had 2 year sixes who had gone the whole way through from school entry was a big deal, most kids lasted 2 years before moving away from the refugee flats into the broader community.

UK citizens have had 'easy access' to live and work in Europe for years, that only takes travel and trade agreements (like NZ and AU have) there is no need for a federal union to facilitate that... Look at Canada and America for a good example?

*edit for spelling and autocorrect

SJB

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#1535545 19-Apr-2016 12:43

Freedom of movement in the EU might work if every country offered the same opportunities. Unfortunately they don't.

People move from the less well off countries, mainly in southern and eastern Europe to the northern and western countries. This makes the situation in the less well off countries even worse as the brightest and most energetic have left.

When Poland joined the EU there was an influx of Poles to the UK where the work opportunities were so much better. The UK government estimated 50,000 might arrive and it turned out to be half a million. I would go into my local bank branch in rural Ross-on-Wye near the Welsh border and every customer apart from me would be speaking Polish.

Before anyone jumps on their keyboard I have nothing at all against Poles.

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#1535978 19-Apr-2016 20:06

SJB:

........ When Poland joined the EU there was an influx of Poles to the UK where the work opportunities were so much better. The UK government estimated 50,000 might arrive and it turned out to be half a million. I would go into my local bank branch in rural Ross-on-Wye near the Welsh border and every customer apart from me would be speaking Polish.

Before anyone jumps on their keyboard I have nothing at all against Poles.

Interesting point about Ross-on-Wye. With my family living in Worcester, I have seen the gradual changes affecting that area, even into the Welsh Hills. I cannot for the life of me work out what work opportunities are available for the Polish folk? A beautiful part of the country.

I almost bought a Hotel / Pub in Betws-y-Coed two years ago, but my father talked me out of it. In his old English middle class (ex business owner) words - "You've done well in NZ, don't blow it for your kids. Europe will not be a pleasant place in 10 years time - England will be worse, because we have the more established, generous and politically correct benefit system.

I'm not sure who is changing more - the old man or the influences that surround him.

Geektastic

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#1536122 19-Apr-2016 23:14

SJB:

Freedom of movement in the EU might work if every country offered the same opportunities. Unfortunately they don't.

People move from the less well off countries, mainly in southern and eastern Europe to the northern and western countries. This makes the situation in the less well off countries even worse as the brightest and most energetic have left.

When Poland joined the EU there was an influx of Poles to the UK where the work opportunities were so much better. The UK government estimated 50,000 might arrive and it turned out to be half a million. I would go into my local bank branch in rural Ross-on-Wye near the Welsh border and every customer apart from me would be speaking Polish.

Before anyone jumps on their keyboard I have nothing at all against Poles.

I know a few people who have moved from the UK to France. They would soon tell you that whilst you can technically do that, the French will, in their own inimitable Gallic way, not make life remotely easy for you to do so when it comes to dealing with officialdom.

(Note - are you sure it was Polish and not Welsh...! ;-) )

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#1536125 19-Apr-2016 23:17

DaveB:

SJB:

........ When Poland joined the EU there was an influx of Poles to the UK where the work opportunities were so much better. The UK government estimated 50,000 might arrive and it turned out to be half a million. I would go into my local bank branch in rural Ross-on-Wye near the Welsh border and every customer apart from me would be speaking Polish.

Before anyone jumps on their keyboard I have nothing at all against Poles.

Interesting point about Ross-on-Wye. With my family living in Worcester, I have seen the gradual changes affecting that area, even into the Welsh Hills. I cannot for the life of me work out what work opportunities are available for the Polish folk? A beautiful part of the country.

I almost bought a Hotel / Pub in Betws-y-Coed two years ago, but my father talked me out of it. In his old English middle class (ex business owner) words - "You've done well in NZ, don't blow it for your kids. Europe will not be a pleasant place in 10 years time - England will be worse, because we have the more established, generous and politically correct benefit system.

I'm not sure who is changing more - the old man or the influences that surround him.

My late father said to me "Well, at least in NZ you'll never run out of food or water - and believe me, one day soon you might well be grateful for that!"

Mind you, I've spent a fair few weeks climbing in Betsy and to be honest you wouldn't run out of water there either...!

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#1536130 19-Apr-2016 23:19

DaveB:

SJB:

........ When Poland joined the EU there was an influx of Poles to the UK where the work opportunities were so much better. The UK government estimated 50,000 might arrive and it turned out to be half a million. I would go into my local bank branch in rural Ross-on-Wye near the Welsh border and every customer apart from me would be speaking Polish.

Before anyone jumps on their keyboard I have nothing at all against Poles.

Interesting point about Ross-on-Wye. With my family living in Worcester, I have seen the gradual changes affecting that area, even into the Welsh Hills. I cannot for the life of me work out what work opportunities are available for the Polish folk? A beautiful part of the country.

I almost bought a Hotel / Pub in Betws-y-Coed two years ago, but my father talked me out of it. In his old English middle class (ex business owner) words - "You've done well in NZ, don't blow it for your kids. Europe will not be a pleasant place in 10 years time - England will be worse, because we have the more established, generous and politically correct benefit system.

I'm not sure who is changing more - the old man or the influences that surround him.

Oh and on the subject of things changing around old men: a friend of mine's father flew Mosquitos in the War. He is (obviously) fairly elderly now but still on the ball. Last time I saw him he said he was no longer sure we joined the right side in the war! That was a fairly damning indictment of modern Britain, I thought.

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#1537095 20-Apr-2016 22:50

Project Fear continues apace: from today's papers!

"EU referendum: Government blames unemployment rise on Brexit fears"

We can all play! Have a go!

"Government blames Global Warming on Brexit fears"

"Government blames price of petrol on Brexit fears"

"Government blames increase in crime on Brexit fears"

wombus

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#1537157 21-Apr-2016 08:06

From all the friends and relatives I have back in Blighty they are all saying we are over full we have no more room for more immigrants, and also that these immigrants receive welfare payments that are mostly going back to fund their families back in the east (that's how they perceive it). This is such an enormous contentious issue with them it totally overshadows any other debate regards staying or going in the EU. The fear now is Turkey may soon have access and a new wave of people will come. I'm no expert on this and have not seen any trending poles as to how the referendum may go, but my gut feeling is that getting out of the EU has overwhelming majority support with the Brits.

Geektastic

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#1537261 21-Apr-2016 09:56

wombus: From all the friends and relatives I have back in Blighty they are all saying we are over full we have no more room for more immigrants, and also that these immigrants receive welfare payments that are mostly going back to fund their families back in the east (that's how they perceive it). This is such an enormous contentious issue with them it totally overshadows any other debate regards staying or going in the EU. The fear now is Turkey may soon have access and a new wave of people will come. I'm no expert on this and have not seen any trending poles as to how the referendum may go, but my gut feeling is that getting out of the EU has overwhelming majority support with the Brits.

This is a very fundamental issue to many, yes.

Britain has had to deal with a number of waves of immigration since WW2 - from the West Indies in the 50's and 60's, India, Pakistan etc in the 70's and then from Uncle Tom Cobbelly and all since the Common Market became the EU.

There are a number of places in the UK now where schools have no 'native' pupils and where English is not the first language for any of the pupils.

I suspect what annoys more people than immigration per se is that they have been forced to accommodate vast numbers and been told that they must change their ways to accommodate the incomers rather than the other way around and in quite significant ways. There are schools, for example, where pork was removed from the school food menus 'just in case' it offended the religious sensibilities of anyone. By anyone, we must infer Muslims, because Jews have lived happily in Britain and attended school there since ages ago without the need for this. There are Sharia religious courts operating in British cities.

It's pretty hard to explain it to anyone who has not actually experienced the changes in Britain over the last 40 or 50 years first hand. Even harder to explain why successive governments of all stripes have been so keen on diluting the homogeneity of society to such a great degree.

Skilled migration is a very good thing: it acts on the society in the same way that disruptors such as Amazon etc have acted on commerce and economics. However, unlike NZ which closely examines all those who wish to come and live here from elsewhere, Britain has not done that in any serious way and indeed CANNOT do it to EU residents by law.

If it were the United States Of Europe, I could see that free movement would be necessary in the same way that it is necessary between California and New York State. However, it is not the USE. Free movement IF YOU HAVE A JOB TO GO TO is fine. Free movement where you pick the country with the best benefits and then move there to collect them from the taxpayers of that country and send them home to Turkey, Romania or wherever it may be is not likely to be a policy that home populations will tolerate ad infinitum, especially when their own economies begin to suffer and they find that they cannot get the healthcare, transport etc they want because so much is being spent on people who are effectively foreigners.

Combine this with the fact that unlike NZ, Britain has never had (at least in my lifetime) any restriction on foreign property ownership at all, so wealthy foreign people from outside the EU have been free to own country estates and farms, London homes and so forth without constraint as well.

So yes it is a big issue. All my remaining family in the UK and all my friends intend to vote to leave almost entirely as a result of this issue alone. Second is the amount of money Britain pays in which they feel would be better spent in Britain.

(Note - do not interpret this as a rant! It's an attempt to explain why so many people in the UK feel rather put upon when it comes to immigration.)

MikeB4

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#1537276 21-Apr-2016 10:31

Geektastic:

wombus: From all the friends and relatives I have back in Blighty they are all saying we are over full we have no more room for more immigrants, and also that these immigrants receive welfare payments that are mostly going back to fund their families back in the east (that's how they perceive it). This is such an enormous contentious issue with them it totally overshadows any other debate regards staying or going in the EU. The fear now is Turkey may soon have access and a new wave of people will come. I'm no expert on this and have not seen any trending poles as to how the referendum may go, but my gut feeling is that getting out of the EU has overwhelming majority support with the Brits.

This is a very fundamental issue to many, yes.

Britain has had to deal with a number of waves of immigration since WW2 - from the West Indies in the 50's and 60's, India, Pakistan etc in the 70's and then from Uncle Tom Cobbelly and all since the Common Market became the EU.

There are a number of places in the UK now where schools have no 'native' pupils and where English is not the first language for any of the pupils.

I suspect what annoys more people than immigration per se is that they have been forced to accommodate vast numbers and been told that they must change their ways to accommodate the incomers rather than the other way around and in quite significant ways. There are schools, for example, where pork was removed from the school food menus 'just in case' it offended the religious sensibilities of anyone. By anyone, we must infer Muslims, because Jews have lived happily in Britain and attended school there since ages ago without the need for this. There are Sharia religious courts operating in British cities.

It's pretty hard to explain it to anyone who has not actually experienced the changes in Britain over the last 40 or 50 years first hand. Even harder to explain why successive governments of all stripes have been so keen on diluting the homogeneity of society to such a great degree.

Skilled migration is a very good thing: it acts on the society in the same way that disruptors such as Amazon etc have acted on commerce and economics. However, unlike NZ which closely examines all those who wish to come and live here from elsewhere, Britain has not done that in any serious way and indeed CANNOT do it to EU residents by law.

If it were the United States Of Europe, I could see that free movement would be necessary in the same way that it is necessary between California and New York State. However, it is not the USE. Free movement IF YOU HAVE A JOB TO GO TO is fine. Free movement where you pick the country with the best benefits and then move there to collect them from the taxpayers of that country and send them home to Turkey, Romania or wherever it may be is not likely to be a policy that home populations will tolerate ad infinitum, especially when their own economies begin to suffer and they find that they cannot get the healthcare, transport etc they want because so much is being spent on people who are effectively foreigners.

Combine this with the fact that unlike NZ, Britain has never had (at least in my lifetime) any restriction on foreign property ownership at all, so wealthy foreign people from outside the EU have been free to own country estates and farms, London homes and so forth without constraint as well.

So yes it is a big issue. All my remaining family in the UK and all my friends intend to vote to leave almost entirely as a result of this issue alone. Second is the amount of money Britain pays in which they feel would be better spent in Britain.

(Note - do not interpret this as a rant! It's an attempt to explain why so many people in the UK feel rather put upon when it comes to immigration.)

It is ironic given the high levels of immigration here from the UK yet we don't feel "put upon"

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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#1537295 21-Apr-2016 10:39

MikeB4:

It is ironic given the high levels of immigration here from the UK yet we don't feel "put upon"

I think that's because we (NZ) are in charge of the selection process for who is able to migrate here (at least, for non-pacific people).

So, we get to choose those who appear to have something to offer the country. And we don't (as far as I know) pay benefits to the overseas families of those living here.

This is a huge difference to the situation in EU

Geektastic

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#1537306 21-Apr-2016 11:00

MikeB4:

Geektastic:

wombus: From all the friends and relatives I have back in Blighty they are all saying we are over full we have no more room for more immigrants, and also that these immigrants receive welfare payments that are mostly going back to fund their families back in the east (that's how they perceive it). This is such an enormous contentious issue with them it totally overshadows any other debate regards staying or going in the EU. The fear now is Turkey may soon have access and a new wave of people will come. I'm no expert on this and have not seen any trending poles as to how the referendum may go, but my gut feeling is that getting out of the EU has overwhelming majority support with the Brits.

This is a very fundamental issue to many, yes.

Britain has had to deal with a number of waves of immigration since WW2 - from the West Indies in the 50's and 60's, India, Pakistan etc in the 70's and then from Uncle Tom Cobbelly and all since the Common Market became the EU.

There are a number of places in the UK now where schools have no 'native' pupils and where English is not the first language for any of the pupils.

I suspect what annoys more people than immigration per se is that they have been forced to accommodate vast numbers and been told that they must change their ways to accommodate the incomers rather than the other way around and in quite significant ways. There are schools, for example, where pork was removed from the school food menus 'just in case' it offended the religious sensibilities of anyone. By anyone, we must infer Muslims, because Jews have lived happily in Britain and attended school there since ages ago without the need for this. There are Sharia religious courts operating in British cities.

It's pretty hard to explain it to anyone who has not actually experienced the changes in Britain over the last 40 or 50 years first hand. Even harder to explain why successive governments of all stripes have been so keen on diluting the homogeneity of society to such a great degree.

Skilled migration is a very good thing: it acts on the society in the same way that disruptors such as Amazon etc have acted on commerce and economics. However, unlike NZ which closely examines all those who wish to come and live here from elsewhere, Britain has not done that in any serious way and indeed CANNOT do it to EU residents by law.

If it were the United States Of Europe, I could see that free movement would be necessary in the same way that it is necessary between California and New York State. However, it is not the USE. Free movement IF YOU HAVE A JOB TO GO TO is fine. Free movement where you pick the country with the best benefits and then move there to collect them from the taxpayers of that country and send them home to Turkey, Romania or wherever it may be is not likely to be a policy that home populations will tolerate ad infinitum, especially when their own economies begin to suffer and they find that they cannot get the healthcare, transport etc they want because so much is being spent on people who are effectively foreigners.

Combine this with the fact that unlike NZ, Britain has never had (at least in my lifetime) any restriction on foreign property ownership at all, so wealthy foreign people from outside the EU have been free to own country estates and farms, London homes and so forth without constraint as well.

So yes it is a big issue. All my remaining family in the UK and all my friends intend to vote to leave almost entirely as a result of this issue alone. Second is the amount of money Britain pays in which they feel would be better spent in Britain.

(Note - do not interpret this as a rant! It's an attempt to explain why so many people in the UK feel rather put upon when it comes to immigration.)

It is ironic given the high levels of immigration here from the UK yet we don't feel "put upon"

It's not really comparable. Essentially we are pretty much interchangeable people with cultures based in the same foundations. This is largely not the case in the UK.

We do not move here and insist that schooling, diet, media, behaviour, clothing, languages, laws etc are altered to suit us and then take the government to a foreign court when we feel that these things are not being done to our satisfaction.

Also given the number of complaints about "Asians" buying all the houses up, it is clear that in fact plenty of people here do feel put upon by immigration.

MikeB4

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#1537313 21-Apr-2016 11:15

I do see a problem with Asian, European, Pacific Island folks buying homes here and I believe neither does a vast majority of New Zealanders, the issue is a Stuff/NZ Herald play thing.

I suspect the same in the UK and that is the impression I get from family there and that the "immigration issue is a political and media play thing, scapegoats have been used all through history. A quick poll of my family in the UK has

more or less 100% in favour of remaining in the EU.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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#1537596 21-Apr-2016 16:30

MikeB4:

Geektastic:

wombus: From all the friends and relatives I have back in Blighty they are all saying we are over full we have no more room for more immigrants, and also that these immigrants receive welfare payments that are mostly going back to fund their families back in the east (that's how they perceive it). This is such an enormous contentious issue with them it totally overshadows any other debate regards staying or going in the EU. The fear now is Turkey may soon have access and a new wave of people will come. I'm no expert on this and have not seen any trending poles as to how the referendum may go, but my gut feeling is that getting out of the EU has overwhelming majority support with the Brits.

This is a very fundamental issue to many, yes.

Britain has had to deal with a number of waves of immigration since WW2 - from the West Indies in the 50's and 60's, India, Pakistan etc in the 70's and then from Uncle Tom Cobbelly and all since the Common Market became the EU.

There are a number of places in the UK now where schools have no 'native' pupils and where English is not the first language for any of the pupils.

I suspect what annoys more people than immigration per se is that they have been forced to accommodate vast numbers and been told that they must change their ways to accommodate the incomers rather than the other way around and in quite significant ways. There are schools, for example, where pork was removed from the school food menus 'just in case' it offended the religious sensibilities of anyone. By anyone, we must infer Muslims, because Jews have lived happily in Britain and attended school there since ages ago without the need for this. There are Sharia religious courts operating in British cities.

It's pretty hard to explain it to anyone who has not actually experienced the changes in Britain over the last 40 or 50 years first hand. Even harder to explain why successive governments of all stripes have been so keen on diluting the homogeneity of society to such a great degree.

Skilled migration is a very good thing: it acts on the society in the same way that disruptors such as Amazon etc have acted on commerce and economics. However, unlike NZ which closely examines all those who wish to come and live here from elsewhere, Britain has not done that in any serious way and indeed CANNOT do it to EU residents by law.

If it were the United States Of Europe, I could see that free movement would be necessary in the same way that it is necessary between California and New York State. However, it is not the USE. Free movement IF YOU HAVE A JOB TO GO TO is fine. Free movement where you pick the country with the best benefits and then move there to collect them from the taxpayers of that country and send them home to Turkey, Romania or wherever it may be is not likely to be a policy that home populations will tolerate ad infinitum, especially when their own economies begin to suffer and they find that they cannot get the healthcare, transport etc they want because so much is being spent on people who are effectively foreigners.

Combine this with the fact that unlike NZ, Britain has never had (at least in my lifetime) any restriction on foreign property ownership at all, so wealthy foreign people from outside the EU have been free to own country estates and farms, London homes and so forth without constraint as well.

So yes it is a big issue. All my remaining family in the UK and all my friends intend to vote to leave almost entirely as a result of this issue alone. Second is the amount of money Britain pays in which they feel would be better spent in Britain.

(Note - do not interpret this as a rant! It's an attempt to explain why so many people in the UK feel rather put upon when it comes to immigration.)

It is ironic given the high levels of immigration here from the UK yet we don't feel "put upon"

I feel post above from Geektastic sums it up in a very logical way especially quoted again below:-

"There are a number of places in the UK now where schools have no 'native' pupils and where English is not the first language for any of the pupils.

I suspect this is the straw that is breaking the camels back with many Brits viewing the EU as the entry point into Britain.

Yes, ironic that we don't feel "put upon" here and I suspect that is because immigration is carefully controlled and there are no significant demands for us long established residents of NZ to have to change our lifestyle to accommodate the belief of others that we must change our lifestyles. Did you know that in some parts of the UK, KFC are not allowed to provide their normal handtowels? Why? Go live there and find out. I think you will quickly get on a plane back here.

For the record, from what I can gather most of my family will vote "out" which in itself saddens me because I think they are going to be terribly disappointed.

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