Government asks TVNZ's board to confirm hiring process of Kamahl Santamaria was proper

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#2921456 1-Jun-2022 15:26

On your second point, when you put it like that I'm actually partially inclined to agree with you (to a degree); maybe he was such a narcissist that he couldn't realise that his advances were unwelcome, but speaking for me (personally) I would immediately ding that something wasn't right and would seek to make amends or say to the person, I'm sorry, have I done something to upset/offend you?

I think if he had done something like this way back at Al Jazeera (and later TVNZ) rather than carrying on thinking everything he was doing was totally fine and above board - as it looks like he did, the outcome would quite possibly be very different to what's happened now.

Rikkitic

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#2921460 1-Jun-2022 15:40

Paul1977:

It really doesn't.

It really does. It blames the woman for the choice she made.

Edited to add: She shouldn't have been put in a position where she even had to make a choice.

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jonathan18

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#2921461 1-Jun-2022 15:41

Paul1977: Don't underestimate male arrogance.

I personally think it's unlikely that, in these situations, the men believe their advances are unwanted. I think it's more likely they have such a high opinion of themselves that they can't imagine their advances would cause anything but delight.

Sure, that may well be the situation - and is exactly why it needs to be covered in the media.

That in 2022 there are still so many people that have such a fundamental misunderstanding of what is appropriate behaviour in (and out of) the workplace, and clearly don’t understand the power imbalances built into workplace hierarchies is frustrating to me but also not at all shocking; while stupid people continue to do stupid stuff like this it’s fair enough these high-profile cases are raised and discussed.

Paul1977

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#2921483 1-Jun-2022 16:18

Rikkitic:

Paul1977:

It really doesn't.

It really does. It blames the woman for the choice she made.

Edited to add: She shouldn't have been put in a position where she even had to make a choice.

I think "blame" is the wrong word in this context. I'm talking about choices made in reaction to the behavior, that's very different from saying she did anything to encourage it. She did make a choice to not say anything for a period of time, and a consequence of that choice was that she felt the need to hide from him (i.e. avoided the problem rather than deal with it).

I agree she shouldn't have been put in a position where she had to make that choice, but that's a pointless argument because unfortunately that's the situation she was in.

martyyn

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#2921484 1-Jun-2022 16:22

There are a couple of people in this thread who really need to take a look at themselves.

Everyone should behave themselves, ALL THE TIME, and if you have an issue with that then I suggest you are part of the problem.

----

"In this day and age I pity any man trying to catch the interest of a woman he likes...." and "He didn't force her to hide in the bathroom...."

MikeB4

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#2921486 1-Jun-2022 16:28

Paul1977:

I think "blame" is the wrong word in this context. I'm talking about choices made in reaction to the behavior, that's very different from saying she did anything to encourage it. She did make a choice to not say anything for a period of time, and a consequence of that choice was that she felt the need to hide from him (i.e. avoided the problem rather than deal with it).

I agree she shouldn't have been put in a position where she had to make that choice, but that's a pointless argument because unfortunately that's the situation she was in.

Not taking action straight away is a symptom of the damage this type of behaviour causes. The psychological impact is pronounced. Then the fear of victim blaming doubles down on the resistance to coming forward.

Paul1977

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#2921490 1-Jun-2022 16:44

MikeB4:

Not taking action straight away is a symptom of the damage this type of behaviour causes. The psychological impact is pronounced. Then the fear of victim blaming doubles down on the resistance to coming forward.

OK, I can agree when you put it like that.

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Handle9

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#2921536 1-Jun-2022 18:37

Eva888: IMHO Men have been emasculated.

You are confusing masculinity with being a creep. The two are very clearly not the same.

MikeB4

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#2921548 1-Jun-2022 19:16

Handle9:
Eva888: IMHO Men have been emasculated.

You are confusing masculinity with being a creep. The two are very clearly not the same.

I agree with you and would add what the hell does emasculated mean in these cases and having regard to the words definition what the hell is the "male role"?

quickymart

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#2921604 1-Jun-2022 23:21

As a male, I'd be curious to hear about this definition too.

Eva888

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#2921786 2-Jun-2022 13:27

emasculate
/ɪˈmaskjʊleɪt/
gerund or present participle: emasculating
1.
deprive (a man) of his male role or identity.

Rather than choosing words out of context to dissect, it’s always appreciated when readers try to understand the entire essence of a discussion. Unfortunately interpretations often vary considerably from the writer's intentions. For anyone that wondered, the use of emasculate referred to natural masculine instinct being curbed.

Here’s some added context. Having a couple of daughters who have broken through the glass ceiling and listening to the ways they have dealt with persistent 'creeps' brought some entertaining and hilarious stories I’d better not share suffice to say that the creeps had a lot of explaining to do to their girlfriends rather than to their bosses. Much worse in my opinion and I’m sure they soon felt very emasculated.

I like the pragmatic way they handle such matters and their ability to differentiate between a creep and someone who is genuine and how to let someone down sympathetically and gently without sharing the experience on any media. I particularly like that they have climbed the ranks using their ample abilities and never pulled the gender card.That’s because they believe they are equal and I take some credit for instilling this.

Women now have so many protections in employment law that they don’t need to be hiding in bathrooms or feeling they are victims. Certainly a lot more protections than when I was navigating life in a world full of men in charge.

So back to the topic of the OP's subject. In the interests of fairness I hope he has the chance to tell his side of the story because so far it’s been missing and there’s been a lot of media conclusions that may or may not be correct.

quickymart

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#2921791 2-Jun-2022 13:47

Cool, that's great for your daughters. Not everyone handles a difficult situation the same way though. Some find it quite confronting (I do, for example).

Looking at a couple of the other points you made:

Women now have so many protections in employment law that they don’t need to be hiding in bathrooms or feeling they are victims. Certainly a lot more protections than when I was navigating life in a world full of men in charge: remember he was not doing this in NZ, but in an Arab country (Qatar) where it's been observed that women are typically treated poorly, and standing up to a male isn't always as as easy as just saying "hey creep please leave me alone".

I hope he has the chance to tell his side of the story: what are you expecting him to say? He may admit his actions were out of line and he may apologise eventually (I sincerely hope he does) but for a lot of the women he has harassed over the years (and it sounds like this has been going on for some time) I suspect that any apology will probably be too little, too late.

Like I said, I doubt you'll see him in any frontline presenting role any time soon. He may be able to recover one day (look at Tony Veitch) but that's some time off yet. I note he's turned off all his social media accounts last night, probably a good idea for now. The question still remains how he got this job in the first place.

GV27

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#2921796 2-Jun-2022 14:00

Eva888:
Women now have so many protections in employment law that they don’t need to be hiding in bathrooms or feeling they are victims.

Wild how being legally protected from something doesn't stop it from happening to you. At some point you're just blaming people for how they handle it and society has largely decided that's probably not where the problem actually lies in these situations.

jonathan18

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#2921797 2-Jun-2022 14:12

Eva888:
Women now have so many protections in employment law that they don’t need to be hiding in bathrooms or feeling they are victims. Certainly a lot more protections than when I was navigating life in a world full of men in charge.

I don't even agree with your statement above in the NZ context - yes, women shouldn't need to be hiding out in bathrooms, for sure, but obviously it's not possible to assume that the way your own daughters have managed such situations is feasible for all women.

But what places your proposed approach to how this woman should have handled it even further from reality is that this particular 'event' didn't even happen in NZ. It happened in Qatar, a nation not particularly well-known for its respect for the rights of women.

A country where, in just one example, complaining to authorities about being assaulted can apparently lead to it being...

turned into an investigation about her, with authorities at one point asking for a virginity test. "It was a very strong humiliation," she said. "My assailant lied, saying that we had a relationship, and, although I had the forensic evidence of the beatings and everything, they believed him and applied the crime of fornication to us in an extramarital relationship, for which we could be in jail for up to seven years," she said. "But since I am Muslim, they can also give me 100 lashes. It’s crazy."

elpenguino

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#2921850 2-Jun-2022 14:42

Eva888: emasculate
/ɪˈmaskjʊleɪt/
gerund or present participle: emasculating
1.
deprive (a man) of his male role or identity.

Rather than choosing words out of context to dissect, it’s always appreciated when readers try to understand the entire essence of a discussion. Unfortunately interpretations often vary considerably from the writer's intentions. For anyone that wondered, the use of emasculate referred to natural masculine instinct being curbed.

There is no male instinct at play here, or anywhere, it's learned behaviour.

Guys can still chase girls ( and girls do chase the guys too ), but the modern man needs to be a bit more subtle about it. Especially if you going to be in the same work environment after being turned down.

Donking a female on the head and dragging her back to the cave is no longer a thing.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

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