Forms of government for New Zealand

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#1027310 18-Apr-2014 13:36

KiwiNZ: The changes I would like to see are...

1. Extend the term of office to 4 years.
2. The voting public decide who in the Government shall be the Prime Minister not the party or Cabinet.
3. Raise the threshold for gaining seats from 5% to 8%.
4. Ban list MP's from changing parties whilst in office.
5. restrict list MP's to a maximum of two terms.If at the end of their second term they are elected as a constituent PM they can remain in Parliament.

1. Can live with that, however make the election date set to say first weekend in October so early elections when the polls are right does not influence the outcome.

2. Perhaps , but there are other ways such as once you are made PM your party can not change you until election time.

3. No, that would eventually bring us back to a 2 party system.

4. So they stay and vote against their party..... ah no, if they leave, they leave and the next person gets in.

5. PM yes, MPs no, experience is needed both as opposition and in cabinet.

Add to this list
100% of donations must be listed, we saw how the limits could be rigged by splitting the cheque in two. If you are too ashamed to be listed then don't donate.
NO donations can be made within 60 days of an election
A FULL list of donation must be made PUBLIC 50 days from an election.
Maximum donation of $10,000 per person
No donations allowed from non voting entities (unions, companies, trusts, churches, lobbyists, overseas interests, etc), if you can not vote you have zero right to influence the election.

Geektastic

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#1027324 18-Apr-2014 14:00

sir1963:
dman: This whole thread has skipped ahead a bit too far in asking the question of "what form of government?" Before then we have to seriously ask ourselves, do we even need government? I say NO!

Then you will soon find the wealthy become "Royalty" and the rest of us become "Serfs"

I think you will find it is a bit late to be concerned about that. It has been that way for about 5000 years and will ever be.

Kyanar

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#1027377 18-Apr-2014 14:50

dman: This whole thread has skipped ahead a bit too far in asking the question of "what form of government?" Before then we have to seriously ask ourselves, do we even need government? I say NO!

This has got to be the single worst post I have seen on Geekzone, and that's saying something.

"Laws? We don't need no stinking laws. Whoever's got the biggest guns should be able to steal, rape, pillage, and so on as much as they want".

We don't have to seriously ask ourselves that question at all, because the question is patently insane. The answer is unequivocally yes, and frankly anyone who thinks the answer is "no" should not be permitted to participate in the democratic process because they're a danger to societal law and order.

gzt

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#1027456 18-Apr-2014 17:26

NZ democracy is robust and there is no need to exclude people from it just because we might not like the way they might vote. That is not democracy.

Signature goes here.

dman

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#1027512 18-Apr-2014 19:41

Kyanar:
dman: This whole thread has skipped ahead a bit too far in asking the question of "what form of government?" Before then we have to seriously ask ourselves, do we even need government? I say NO!

This has got to be the single worst post I have seen on Geekzone, and that's saying something.

"Laws? We don't need no stinking laws. Whoever's got the biggest guns should be able to steal, rape, pillage, and so on as much as they want".

We don't have to seriously ask ourselves that question at all, because the question is patently insane. The answer is unequivocally yes, and frankly anyone who thinks the answer is "no" should not be permitted to participate in the democratic process because they're a danger to societal law and order.

Wow, you appear 100% ignorant of all the work done around any of the philosophies of anarchy. (look them up, there is more knowledge out there than you could read in many lifetimes. Anarchism is a surprisingly diverse field)

As well as making a number of unfounded assumptions (for instance, you don't need a state to create laws. The Creation of Rules Of Law: The Obviousness of Anarchy).

And just because you disagree with me is no reason in of itself that you should seek to exclude me.

https://www.youtube.com/c/SoundSpeeding

MikeB4

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#1027536 18-Apr-2014 20:17

dman:
Kyanar:
dman: This whole thread has skipped ahead a bit too far in asking the question of "what form of government?" Before then we have to seriously ask ourselves, do we even need government? I say NO!

This has got to be the single worst post I have seen on Geekzone, and that's saying something.

"Laws? We don't need no stinking laws. Whoever's got the biggest guns should be able to steal, rape, pillage, and so on as much as they want".

We don't have to seriously ask ourselves that question at all, because the question is patently insane. The answer is unequivocally yes, and frankly anyone who thinks the answer is "no" should not be permitted to participate in the democratic process because they're a danger to societal law and order.

Wow, you appear 100% ignorant of all the work done around any of the philosophies of anarchy. (look them up, there is more knowledge out there than you could read in many lifetimes. Anarchism is a surprisingly diverse field)

As well as making a number of unfounded assumptions (for instance, you don't need a state to create laws. The Creation of Rules Of Law: The Obviousness of Anarchy).

And just because you disagree with me is no reason in of itself that you should seek to exclude me.

Whoa it's chill time i think

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Dyson

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Sidestep

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#1027560 18-Apr-2014 20:33

dman:
Wow, you appear 100% ignorant of all the work done around any of the philosophies of anarchy. (look them up, there is more knowledge out there than you could read in many lifetimes. Anarchism is a surprisingly diverse field)

As well as making a number of unfounded assumptions (for instance, you don't need a state to create laws. The Creation of Rules Of Law: The Obviousness of Anarchy).

And just because you disagree with me is no reason in of itself that you should seek to exclude me.

Ahh.. because the State's a tool of the ruling class..
I'm sure Anarchism, like it's cousin communism, is good in theory, but like any theories revolving around a stateless, classless society of individuals working for the greater good - perhaps not effective in practice.

Kyanar

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#1027569 18-Apr-2014 20:55

dman:

Wow, you appear 100% ignorant of all the work done around any of the philosophies of anarchy. (look them up, there is more knowledge out there than you could read in many lifetimes. Anarchism is a surprisingly diverse field)

As well as making a number of unfounded assumptions (for instance, you don't need a state to create laws. The Creation of Rules Of Law: The Obviousness of Anarchy).

And just because you disagree with me is no reason in of itself that you should seek to exclude me.

And without a state, who enforces laws? The police? (wait, no government to employ them). The military? (wait, no government to employ them). The neighbours? (yeah, because that happens now... wait, no it doesn't).

Basically put, a government is necessary. Someone needs to make the laws, and someone needs to enforce them. A society absent an authority doesn't work, just like a society based on absolute equality doesn't work (cf. Animal Farm - Orwell is a genius).

And I would seek to exclude people with your viewpoint, because you would seek to undermine government with your vote. However, gzt speaks truth - as your opinion is in a minority, the very structure of democracy would prevent your viewpoint damaging the structure itself.

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried".

charsleysa

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#1027701 19-Apr-2014 12:26

Sidestep:
dman:
Wow, you appear 100% ignorant of all the work done around any of the philosophies of anarchy. (look them up, there is more knowledge out there than you could read in many lifetimes. Anarchism is a surprisingly diverse field)

As well as making a number of unfounded assumptions (for instance, you don't need a state to create laws. The Creation of Rules Of Law: The Obviousness of Anarchy).

And just because you disagree with me is no reason in of itself that you should seek to exclude me.

Ahh.. because the State's a tool of the ruling class..
I'm sure Anarchism, like it's cousin communism, is good in theory, but like any theories revolving around a stateless, classless society of individuals working for the greater good - perhaps not effective in practice.

Agreed. A system like that never works in the end because of basic human attributes such as self-preservation and greed.

Regards
Stefan Andres Charsley

sir1963

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#1027703 19-Apr-2014 12:37

charsleysa:
Sidestep:
dman:
Wow, you appear 100% ignorant of all the work done around any of the philosophies of anarchy. (look them up, there is more knowledge out there than you could read in many lifetimes. Anarchism is a surprisingly diverse field)

As well as making a number of unfounded assumptions (for instance, you don't need a state to create laws. The Creation of Rules Of Law: The Obviousness of Anarchy).

And just because you disagree with me is no reason in of itself that you should seek to exclude me.

Ahh.. because the State's a tool of the ruling class..
I'm sure Anarchism, like it's cousin communism, is good in theory, but like any theories revolving around a stateless, classless society of individuals working for the greater good - perhaps not effective in practice.

Agreed. A system like that never works in the end because of basic human attributes such as self-preservation and greed.

Greed will be the biggest thing, always is, and too often it is done by those who already have the most anyway.

Geektastic

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#1027713 19-Apr-2014 14:15

sir1963:
charsleysa:
Sidestep:
dman:
Wow, you appear 100% ignorant of all the work done around any of the philosophies of anarchy. (look them up, there is more knowledge out there than you could read in many lifetimes. Anarchism is a surprisingly diverse field)

As well as making a number of unfounded assumptions (for instance, you don't need a state to create laws. The Creation of Rules Of Law: The Obviousness of Anarchy).

And just because you disagree with me is no reason in of itself that you should seek to exclude me.

Ahh.. because the State's a tool of the ruling class..
I'm sure Anarchism, like it's cousin communism, is good in theory, but like any theories revolving around a stateless, classless society of individuals working for the greater good - perhaps not effective in practice.

Agreed. A system like that never works in the end because of basic human attributes such as self-preservation and greed.

Greed will be the biggest thing, always is, and too often it is done by those who already have the most anyway.

It has existed since the only argument was who had the biggest cave or the most women. It always will. It is an exercise in futility to pretend a system can ever exist in which everyone is happy to be dragged down to the lowest common denominator.

Dyson

Shop now for Dyson appliances (affiliate link).

Geektastic

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#1027716 19-Apr-2014 14:20

gzt: NZ democracy is robust and there is no need to exclude people from it just because we might not like the way they might vote. That is not democracy.

That I agree with (or at least, I don't completely but very few will agree with my preference for benevolent dictatorship!) but I do not agree that merely being alive ought to entitle you to vote.

You cannot drive, fly, shoot, practice medicine or law, be an accountant or a plumber and so on without showing you understand what is involved and neither should you be able to exercise control over the destiny of NZ unless you can do the same.

sir1963

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#1027721 19-Apr-2014 14:28

Geektastic:
gzt: NZ democracy is robust and there is no need to exclude people from it just because we might not like the way they might vote. That is not democracy.

That I agree with (or at least, I don't completely but very few will agree with my preference for benevolent dictatorship!) but I do not agree that merely being alive ought to entitle you to vote.

You cannot drive, fly, shoot, practice medicine or law, be an accountant or a plumber and so on without showing you understand what is involved and neither should you be able to exercise control over the destiny of NZ unless you can do the same.

The problem is everyone judges a persons intelligence/competence based on how closely their opinions match your own, thus we get the left/right divide.

JimmyH

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#1027807 19-Apr-2014 17:49

charsleysa:
Sidestep:
dman:
Wow, you appear 100% ignorant of all the work done around any of the philosophies of anarchy. (look them up, there is more knowledge out there than you could read in many lifetimes. Anarchism is a surprisingly diverse field)

As well as making a number of unfounded assumptions (for instance, you don't need a state to create laws. The Creation of Rules Of Law: The Obviousness of Anarchy).

And just because you disagree with me is no reason in of itself that you should seek to exclude me.

Ahh.. because the State's a tool of the ruling class..
I'm sure Anarchism, like it's cousin communism, is good in theory, but like any theories revolving around a stateless, classless society of individuals working for the greater good - perhaps not effective in practice.

Agreed. A system like that never works in the end because of basic human attributes such as self-preservation and greed.

Kind of reminds me of the classic joke from Soviet times:

After Leonid Brezhnev ascended to power he brought his little old mother to Moscow from the Ukraine where he was born.

He showed here his HUGE office in the Kremlin - with paintings from The Hermitage, and a PHONE and crystal chandeliers, and a secretary, and then took her for a ride in his huge LIMOUSINE and showed her his huge apartment - with a maid and a butler and a chef, and then they took a helicopter to his palatial DACHA.

After this incredible tour, he asked his mother: "What do you think of your little Leonidchka now, mamma?"

"Well," she hesitates, "it's good, Leonid. But what if the Reds come back?"

MikeB4

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#1027829 19-Apr-2014 19:24

Geektastic:
gzt: NZ democracy is robust and there is no need to exclude people from it just because we might not like the way they might vote. That is not democracy.

That I agree with (or at least, I don't completely but very few will agree with my preference for benevolent dictatorship!) but I do not agree that merely being alive ought to entitle you to vote.

You cannot drive, fly, shoot, practice medicine or law, be an accountant or a plumber and so on without showing you understand what is involved and neither should you be able to exercise control over the destiny of NZ unless you can do the same.

Universal Suffrage ranks as one of the best decisions NZ ever made.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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