Jury service selectors becoming very aggressive

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#1076662 29-Jun-2014 19:50

timmmay: Their "payment" is a joke. Most professionals earn more in an hour than their daily rate. People could risk not making their mortgage payments because of that.

Agreed, I am sure the bank/phone/power/finance companies will be really understanding that you can't pay the bill because you were doing jury service so they should wave the bills. Plus dropping those extra KG's from not being able to eat will be good for you. :P

Tzoi

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#1076670 29-Jun-2014 20:10

My understanding was that lawyers/judges can't do jury service because of the chance they'd influence the other jurors? Knowing someone on the jury is a lawyer/judge would make the jurors think oh he knows his stuff I better listen to him. Not sure how correct this view is however.

Also, I think most of the discussion about some people being called often compared to others is fine according to the law of probabilities and is just as likely to happen as everyone getting called once. I think the high sample numbers for that is more confirmation bias than anything.

I was called for jury service during term time at university. I told them that I couldn't do it then but would be happy to during my break which they accepted and I got called up a few months later in my holidays. They had something like 200 people that week and they sent half away because they didn't need that many for the trials after the initial selection. Only some of them were asked to come back later in the week for trials that started then. Most of them only had to come for the hour or two that the introduction thing took.

I got taken to one of the court rooms along with around 30 others where they selected the 12 jurors. I got selected but was challenged. Not sure why I got challenged (20yo asian male). A number of people went and talked to the judge personally after being called and they managed to avoid jury service.

Kyanar

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#1076671 29-Jun-2014 20:14

mattwnz: The problem I see with how jury service works, I think that they assume most people are 'employees', so the systems work on that basis. However many people are business owners and sole traders, where they can't take a week or more off, otherwise it would be detrimental to their business, and other businesses too that use their service. In those cases the people can request to be excused. I have no idea though what happens if that and the appeal is turned down. I presume they have to give a reason why it is turned down.

Actually, the system assumes that everyone is unemployed, because the payment they offer is less than most people's daily rate - and your employer is not legally required to pay you while you're on jury service. But don't take my word for it - take the Department of Labour's. If you ask me, that is a serious have. If you're legally required to complete jury service as part of your civil duty, then either the Ministry of Justice needs to pay you what you'd otherwise get paid (and damn the cost to the taxpayer) or it should be enshrined in law that as part of an employer's civil duty, they must pay you while on jury service. As it is now, one could potentially argue that jury service is technically slavery (forced servitude). That said, scouring NZ law, apparently slavery is only illegal if you traffic in it across sovereign territories (the more you know?)

scuwp

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#1076681 29-Jun-2014 20:31

Lawyers, Judges, Registrars are 'officers of the court' and cannot be called a Jurors. Likewise Police Officers, and any other Enforcement or Compliance Officer cannot serve on a jury. The sooner we move to an inquisitorial system rather than an adversarial, and replace jury's with a panel of judges the better.

Lazy is such an ugly word, I prefer to call it selective participation

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#1076691 29-Jun-2014 21:02

Well, with Owen Glenn's suggestions for law reform it won't be an issue since you'll be guilty until proven innocent anyway so there'll be no point even having trials because lord forbid we traumatise victims by making them give evidence.

networkn

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#1076693 29-Jun-2014 21:08

Kyanar: Well, with Owen Glenn's suggestions for law reform it won't be an issue since you'll be guilty until proven innocent anyway so there'll be no point even having trials because lord forbid we traumatise victims by making them give evidence.

Yah when I read this I thought he was being facetious. The situation with domestic violence in NZ is terrible, bit there are situations that are complicated and it's not as simple as people might be often tempted to believe. A lot of false claims are made during these investigations.

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#1076698 29-Jun-2014 21:25

scuwp: Lawyers, Judges, Registrars are 'officers of the court' and cannot be called a Jurors. Likewise Police Officers, and any other Enforcement or Compliance Officer cannot serve on a jury. The sooner we move to an inquisitorial system rather than an adversarial, and replace jury's with a panel of judges the better.

umm ... maybe it's got something to do with cheap labour vs not cheap labour?

alexj

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#1076710 29-Jun-2014 21:43

My gosh imagine how much people would s**t the bed if they made mandatory military service for 1 year of your life! Imagine the silver spoon crowd would let history repeat and get let off all over again.

"I can't go off to war in North Korea my family companies share price would drop several points!"

"I can't go because I have a son with a peanut allergy"

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Kyanar

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#1076713 29-Jun-2014 21:51

alexj: My gosh imagine how much people would s**t the bed if they made mandatory military service for 1 year of your life! Imagine the silver spoon crowd would let history repeat and get let off all over again.

"I can't go off to war in North Korea my family companies share price would drop several points!"

"I can't go because I have a son with a peanut allergy"

I don't think that's even slightly comparable. When you're in military service, the military provides you with free education, three meals a day, a roof over your head, and legal protections ensuring you've got a job to come back to (or no need because it's when you turn 18 and you haven't really entered the workforce yet, assuming you're referring to the swiss system). Not even in the same league as being required to take a week off work with no guarantee you get paid, regardless of the consequences to your financial/medical/employment situation. And side note, there are some individuals that really cannot take the week off work. Example: guess how many pathologists an average hospital has? If you guessed "more than one", you're wrong... the correct answer is zero to one.

dejadeadnz

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#1076719 29-Jun-2014 22:02

drajk:
dejadeadnz: Personally, as someone who has had actual professional experience related to jury trials, the sooner we follow the European system where all cases are decided by a panel of judges required to give reasons, the better.

Completely disagree. There is huge potential for bias when those making these decisions know each other, may have worked with each other, may not want to offend each other etc...

No offence but your understanding of the law in relation to judicial recusal is extremely poor if you think this is a good argument against judges sitting in panels. Judges regularly recuse themselves when they know certain parties or a reasonably minded person might perceive the trial to be unfair should the judge preside (regardless of whether he/she subjectively intends to be biased or not).

alexj

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#1076725 29-Jun-2014 22:09

Kyanar:
alexj: My gosh imagine how much people would s**t the bed if they made mandatory military service for 1 year of your life! Imagine the silver spoon crowd would let history repeat and get let off all over again.

"I can't go off to war in North Korea my family companies share price would drop several points!"

"I can't go because I have a son with a peanut allergy"

I don't think that's even slightly comparable. When you're in military service, the military provides you with free education, three meals a day, a roof over your head, and legal protections ensuring you've got a job to come back to (or no need because it's when you turn 18 and you haven't really entered the workforce yet, assuming you're referring to the swiss system). Not even in the same league as being required to take a week off work with no guarantee you get paid, regardless of the consequences to your financial/medical/employment situation. And side note, there are some individuals that really cannot take the week off work. Example: guess how many pathologists an average hospital has? If you guessed "more than one", you're wrong... the correct answer is zero to one.

Calm down mate I was clearly taking the piss. My point was solely aimed at people feeling entitled in that their job > a functioning justice system.

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mattwnz

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#1076726 29-Jun-2014 22:11

mrtoken:
timmmay: Their "payment" is a joke. Most professionals earn more in an hour than their daily rate. People could risk not making their mortgage payments because of that.

Agreed, I am sure the bank/phone/power/finance companies will be really understanding that you can't pay the bill because you were doing jury service so they should wave the bills. Plus dropping those extra KG's from not being able to eat will be good for you. :P

Apparently they do feed you. When my mum was on it for a Wellington district court case, apparently they had meals at the rail station diner , so not exactly first class dining. That was some time ago though.

profrink

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#1076735 29-Jun-2014 22:23

alexj:
profrink: A while back, I was summoned each year for 4 years straight. My requests for exemption were declined multiple times even though I had provided very valid evidence such as international flights and country visa confirmations/paper work. It was as though they hadn't even read my responses and just declined. Each time it ended up taking an angry phone call for MoJ to open their eyes.

Though the worst experience I had was in my final year of University. I was summoned during exam period - particularly on the day of my first exam. My exemptions incl. evidence, were rejected twice and after calling I was repeatedly told I'd have to appear otherwise face a fine blah blah. I was more than happy to serve my duty at an alternative date, but no.

Well, there was no way in hell I was missing an exam due to a flawed system, so I thought f*** it have fun with the media s*** storm if you try to fine me. Didn't hear anything.

My experience has given me the impression that if you are excused, your chance of summons is much greater. Also I think they become more skeptical the more you ask to be excused, no matter how unfortunate the timing is. But really, having provided consulting for MoJ - it's most likely down to terrible business systems & processes.

Err have you perhaps contacted the police to see if there are any outstanding warrants for your arrest? Might be worth checking... just sayin'

I have a clean record and I am security vetted for the work I am currently in.

But yes I should have followed up with that, but was pretty fed up with the process at the time. I was more than happy to serve my duty on an alternative date.

kiwitrc

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#1076787 30-Jun-2014 06:48

KiwiNZ: I get excused due to disability and a suppressed immune system , IRS annoying that I have to repeat my excuse.

This is interesting, how does the suppressed immune system thing relate to Jury Service?

MikeB4

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#1076790 30-Jun-2014 07:02

kiwitrc:
KiwiNZ: I get excused due to disability and a suppressed immune system , IRS annoying that I have to repeat my excuse.

This is interesting, how does the suppressed immune system thing relate to Jury Service?

Exposure to bacteria or virii that would cause you to get a sneeze or a slightly infected finger can kill me or have me hospitalised for a very long time.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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