IN or OUT? All on in the UK for the next 10 weeks.

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#1537769 21-Apr-2016 21:36

Geektastic:

wombus: From all the friends and relatives I have back in Blighty they are all saying we are over full we have no more room for more immigrants, and also that these immigrants receive welfare payments that are mostly going back to fund their families back in the east (that's how they perceive it). This is such an enormous contentious issue with them it totally overshadows any other debate regards staying or going in the EU. The fear now is Turkey may soon have access and a new wave of people will come. I'm no expert on this and have not seen any trending poles as to how the referendum may go, but my gut feeling is that getting out of the EU has overwhelming majority support with the Brits.

This is a very fundamental issue to many, yes.

Britain has had to deal with a number of waves of immigration since WW2 - from the West Indies in the 50's and 60's, India, Pakistan etc in the 70's and then from Uncle Tom Cobbelly and all since the Common Market became the EU.

There are a number of places in the UK now where schools have no 'native' pupils and where English is not the first language for any of the pupils.

I suspect what annoys more people than immigration per se is that they have been forced to accommodate vast numbers and been told that they must change their ways to accommodate the incomers rather than the other way around and in quite significant ways. There are schools, for example, where pork was removed from the school food menus 'just in case' it offended the religious sensibilities of anyone. By anyone, we must infer Muslims, because Jews have lived happily in Britain and attended school there since ages ago without the need for this. There are Sharia religious courts operating in British cities.

It's pretty hard to explain it to anyone who has not actually experienced the changes in Britain over the last 40 or 50 years first hand. Even harder to explain why successive governments of all stripes have been so keen on diluting the homogeneity of society to such a great degree.

Skilled migration is a very good thing: it acts on the society in the same way that disruptors such as Amazon etc have acted on commerce and economics. However, unlike NZ which closely examines all those who wish to come and live here from elsewhere, Britain has not done that in any serious way and indeed CANNOT do it to EU residents by law.

If it were the United States Of Europe, I could see that free movement would be necessary in the same way that it is necessary between California and New York State. However, it is not the USE. Free movement IF YOU HAVE A JOB TO GO TO is fine. Free movement where you pick the country with the best benefits and then move there to collect them from the taxpayers of that country and send them home to Turkey, Romania or wherever it may be is not likely to be a policy that home populations will tolerate ad infinitum, especially when their own economies begin to suffer and they find that they cannot get the healthcare, transport etc they want because so much is being spent on people who are effectively foreigners.

Combine this with the fact that unlike NZ, Britain has never had (at least in my lifetime) any restriction on foreign property ownership at all, so wealthy foreign people from outside the EU have been free to own country estates and farms, London homes and so forth without constraint as well.

So yes it is a big issue. All my remaining family in the UK and all my friends intend to vote to leave almost entirely as a result of this issue alone. Second is the amount of money Britain pays in which they feel would be better spent in Britain.

(Note - do not interpret this as a rant! It's an attempt to explain why so many people in the UK feel rather put upon when it comes to immigration.)

Is the former "issue" of immigration related to the fact that the British colonized those people and extracted the wealth of those lands in the past?

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#1537899 22-Apr-2016 08:48

Since when did Britain colonise Turkey/Romania and all the Slavic 'east european' countries that are the current/predicted issue?

You're thinking in NZ Treaty terms, which don't apply at all to this discussion...

MikeB4

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#1537906 22-Apr-2016 08:58

migration is a global thing not just a European issue. As climate change bites migration will increase rapidly and borders are going to be less relevant, the World needs to accept this and adapt.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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#1558989 24-May-2016 22:16

Just had to revisit this in light of the piles of FUD that Cameron is pushing out. It's reaching the point where I expect to see "Brexit will cause mass extinctions, cancer and alien invasion" at any moment in the newspapers.

There is a Matt cartoon in today's telegraph that shows he is now on the wrong side of ridicule. Guy cleaning a wet floor in HM Treasury and a safety sign that says "Caution: wet floor! May cause Armageddon!"

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#1559062 25-May-2016 04:34

As nobody really knows what is going to happen, this whole thing has been a campaign of fear about what might happen should you dare vote for the other lot.

As a NZer living in the UK, I can vote in this and am still quite torn. From a selfish point of view, what is in it for me? As I don't have a UK passport, it doesn't seem I will lose out that much if the UK leave the EU.

Also as New Zealander living here, getting scrutinised about why you're here, having no access to public funds and now getting hit with a healthcare surcharge, you can't help but get annoyed at the possibility of others coming in from the EU and using the benefits, health system etc. The other side is too, that even if Britain leave, they will continue make it extremely hard for the rest of us anyway. Because they can't screw people from the EU, they will continue to screw the rest of us for whatever they can. Though it would be nice, even the 'white commonwealth' (the ones that can get 2 year visas etc) probably won't get a better deal. A system that treats all potential migrants with the same criteria would be nice, but while the UK remain in the EU, their hands are tied about doing anything like this.

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#1559069 25-May-2016 06:39

Geektastic:
MikeB4:

Geektastic:

wombus: From all the friends and relatives I have back in Blighty they are all saying we are over full we have no more room for more immigrants, and also that these immigrants receive welfare payments that are mostly going back to fund their families back in the east (that's how they perceive it). This is such an enormous contentious issue with them it totally overshadows any other debate regards staying or going in the EU. The fear now is Turkey may soon have access and a new wave of people will come. I'm no expert on this and have not seen any trending poles as to how the referendum may go, but my gut feeling is that getting out of the EU has overwhelming majority support with the Brits.

This is a very fundamental issue to many, yes.

Britain has had to deal with a number of waves of immigration since WW2 - from the West Indies in the 50's and 60's, India, Pakistan etc in the 70's and then from Uncle Tom Cobbelly and all since the Common Market became the EU.

There are a number of places in the UK now where schools have no 'native' pupils and where English is not the first language for any of the pupils.

I suspect what annoys more people than immigration per se is that they have been forced to accommodate vast numbers and been told that they must change their ways to accommodate the incomers rather than the other way around and in quite significant ways. There are schools, for example, where pork was removed from the school food menus 'just in case' it offended the religious sensibilities of anyone. By anyone, we must infer Muslims, because Jews have lived happily in Britain and attended school there since ages ago without the need for this. There are Sharia religious courts operating in British cities.

It's pretty hard to explain it to anyone who has not actually experienced the changes in Britain over the last 40 or 50 years first hand. Even harder to explain why successive governments of all stripes have been so keen on diluting the homogeneity of society to such a great degree.

Skilled migration is a very good thing: it acts on the society in the same way that disruptors such as Amazon etc have acted on commerce and economics. However, unlike NZ which closely examines all those who wish to come and live here from elsewhere, Britain has not done that in any serious way and indeed CANNOT do it to EU residents by law.

If it were the United States Of Europe, I could see that free movement would be necessary in the same way that it is necessary between California and New York State. However, it is not the USE. Free movement IF YOU HAVE A JOB TO GO TO is fine. Free movement where you pick the country with the best benefits and then move there to collect them from the taxpayers of that country and send them home to Turkey, Romania or wherever it may be is not likely to be a policy that home populations will tolerate ad infinitum, especially when their own economies begin to suffer and they find that they cannot get the healthcare, transport etc they want because so much is being spent on people who are effectively foreigners.

Combine this with the fact that unlike NZ, Britain has never had (at least in my lifetime) any restriction on foreign property ownership at all, so wealthy foreign people from outside the EU have been free to own country estates and farms, London homes and so forth without constraint as well.

So yes it is a big issue. All my remaining family in the UK and all my friends intend to vote to leave almost entirely as a result of this issue alone. Second is the amount of money Britain pays in which they feel would be better spent in Britain.

(Note - do not interpret this as a rant! It's an attempt to explain why so many people in the UK feel rather put upon when it comes to immigration.)

It is ironic given the high levels of immigration here from the UK yet we don't feel "put upon"

It's not really comparable. Essentially we are pretty much interchangeable people with cultures based in the same foundations. This is largely not the case in the UK.

We do not move here and insist that schooling, diet, media, behaviour, clothing, languages, laws etc are altered to suit us and then take the government to a foreign court when we feel that these things are not being done to our satisfaction.

Also given the number of complaints about "Asians" buying all the houses up, it is clear that in fact plenty of people here do feel put upon by immigration.

For years the English invaded other countries, imposed their legal system, language, culture and values upon the native peoples, looted their gold and other precious ores, stole land, introduced diseases and trafficked humans. Now with the boot on the other foot, the English complain about foreigners coming into England and taking advantage of their welfare system. I realize that the Europeans aren't from the former English colonies, but my point is, now maybe the English will appreciate a little of what it was like to be on the receiving end of English colonisation. However, I much prefer that the English colonised NZ than the Spanish, Portuguese, Italians or French.

That being said, if I were English, I would vote to be out of the EU. The English have a nice society and I fear England is losing this and the financial strain of funding foreigners to live in the U.K. is immense. What does England gain by being part of the E.U.?

The U.K., as one of the more prosperous and less corrupt nations of the E.U., naturally serves as a place to go to for a better life, no wonder it's inundated with immigrants from the E.U. Being part of the E.U., the English government cannot control its borders and filter immigrants from the E.U., all sorts of riff raff can enter, instead of those England believes will be a net contributor to England. Or is that just being selfish/politically incorrect/conservative/racist?

Of course as a Kiwi, I'm hoping that if the U.K. depart the E.U. then our exports to the U.K. will increase as a consequence.

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#1559181 25-May-2016 09:31

The FUD campaign seems to be working unfortunately. The 'leave' campaign is leaking support and 'remain' are now leading by several % according to the latest polls.

There has been an avalanche of 'expert opinion' saying such things as the value of your house will drop overnight or you'll be unemployed and there will be a year long recession.

The arguments have all been about the economic short term when they should have been about sovereignty in the long term.

I would vote out no matter what doom and gloom the politicians and bankers predicted. When did they ever get it right any way?

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#1559236 25-May-2016 11:03

allstarnz:

As nobody really knows what is going to happen, this whole thing has been a campaign of fear about what might happen should you dare vote for the other lot.

As a NZer living in the UK, I can vote in this and am still quite torn. From a selfish point of view, what is in it for me? As I don't have a UK passport, it doesn't seem I will lose out that much if the UK leave the EU.

Also as New Zealander living here, getting scrutinised about why you're here, having no access to public funds and now getting hit with a healthcare surcharge, you can't help but get annoyed at the possibility of others coming in from the EU and using the benefits, health system etc. The other side is too, that even if Britain leave, they will continue make it extremely hard for the rest of us anyway. Because they can't screw people from the EU, they will continue to screw the rest of us for whatever they can. Though it would be nice, even the 'white commonwealth' (the ones that can get 2 year visas etc) probably won't get a better deal. A system that treats all potential migrants with the same criteria would be nice, but while the UK remain in the EU, their hands are tied about doing anything like this.

Last time I was in the UK, I was travelling on my NZ passport. The surly knobber at the immigration desk stamped my passport with the whole 'no recourse to public funds' thing and I actually asked him whether that had any relevance at all since I could produce my birth certificate stating I was born a UK citizen. "Ummm, no probably not" was the reply!

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#1559238 25-May-2016 11:05

SJB:

The FUD campaign seems to be working unfortunately. The 'leave' campaign is leaking support and 'remain' are now leading by several % according to the latest polls.

There has been an avalanche of 'expert opinion' saying such things as the value of your house will drop overnight or you'll be unemployed and there will be a year long recession.

The arguments have all been about the economic short term when they should have been about sovereignty in the long term.

I would vote out no matter what doom and gloom the politicians and bankers predicted. When did they ever get it right any way?

Agreed. Sadly, too few people are able to think for themselves. There's probably a whole tranche who want an app to tell them what to do..!

Also as I said earlier on in the thread, a massive number of people voting have never actually lived in a Britain that could decide what to do without the EU thing. They see it as normal.

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#1559242 25-May-2016 11:11

Kiwifruta:
Geektastic:

MikeB4:

Geektastic:

wombus: From all the friends and relatives I have back in Blighty they are all saying we are over full we have no more room for more immigrants, and also that these immigrants receive welfare payments that are mostly going back to fund their families back in the east (that's how they perceive it). This is such an enormous contentious issue with them it totally overshadows any other debate regards staying or going in the EU. The fear now is Turkey may soon have access and a new wave of people will come. I'm no expert on this and have not seen any trending poles as to how the referendum may go, but my gut feeling is that getting out of the EU has overwhelming majority support with the Brits.

This is a very fundamental issue to many, yes.

Britain has had to deal with a number of waves of immigration since WW2 - from the West Indies in the 50's and 60's, India, Pakistan etc in the 70's and then from Uncle Tom Cobbelly and all since the Common Market became the EU.

There are a number of places in the UK now where schools have no 'native' pupils and where English is not the first language for any of the pupils.

I suspect what annoys more people than immigration per se is that they have been forced to accommodate vast numbers and been told that they must change their ways to accommodate the incomers rather than the other way around and in quite significant ways. There are schools, for example, where pork was removed from the school food menus 'just in case' it offended the religious sensibilities of anyone. By anyone, we must infer Muslims, because Jews have lived happily in Britain and attended school there since ages ago without the need for this. There are Sharia religious courts operating in British cities.

It's pretty hard to explain it to anyone who has not actually experienced the changes in Britain over the last 40 or 50 years first hand. Even harder to explain why successive governments of all stripes have been so keen on diluting the homogeneity of society to such a great degree.

Skilled migration is a very good thing: it acts on the society in the same way that disruptors such as Amazon etc have acted on commerce and economics. However, unlike NZ which closely examines all those who wish to come and live here from elsewhere, Britain has not done that in any serious way and indeed CANNOT do it to EU residents by law.

If it were the United States Of Europe, I could see that free movement would be necessary in the same way that it is necessary between California and New York State. However, it is not the USE. Free movement IF YOU HAVE A JOB TO GO TO is fine. Free movement where you pick the country with the best benefits and then move there to collect them from the taxpayers of that country and send them home to Turkey, Romania or wherever it may be is not likely to be a policy that home populations will tolerate ad infinitum, especially when their own economies begin to suffer and they find that they cannot get the healthcare, transport etc they want because so much is being spent on people who are effectively foreigners.

Combine this with the fact that unlike NZ, Britain has never had (at least in my lifetime) any restriction on foreign property ownership at all, so wealthy foreign people from outside the EU have been free to own country estates and farms, London homes and so forth without constraint as well.

So yes it is a big issue. All my remaining family in the UK and all my friends intend to vote to leave almost entirely as a result of this issue alone. Second is the amount of money Britain pays in which they feel would be better spent in Britain.

(Note - do not interpret this as a rant! It's an attempt to explain why so many people in the UK feel rather put upon when it comes to immigration.)

It is ironic given the high levels of immigration here from the UK yet we don't feel "put upon"

It's not really comparable. Essentially we are pretty much interchangeable people with cultures based in the same foundations. This is largely not the case in the UK.

We do not move here and insist that schooling, diet, media, behaviour, clothing, languages, laws etc are altered to suit us and then take the government to a foreign court when we feel that these things are not being done to our satisfaction.

Also given the number of complaints about "Asians" buying all the houses up, it is clear that in fact plenty of people here do feel put upon by immigration.

For years the English invaded other countries, imposed their legal system, language, culture and values upon the native peoples, looted their gold and other precious ores, stole land, introduced diseases and trafficked humans. Now with the boot on the other foot, the English complain about foreigners coming into England and taking advantage of their welfare system. I realize that the Europeans aren't from the former English colonies, but my point is, now maybe the English will appreciate a little of what it was like to be on the receiving end of English colonisation. However, I much prefer that the English colonised NZ than the Spanish, Portuguese, Italians or French.

That being said, if I were English, I would vote to be out of the EU. The English have a nice society and I fear England is losing this and the financial strain of funding foreigners to live in the U.K. is immense. What does England gain by being part of the E.U.?

The U.K., as one of the more prosperous and less corrupt nations of the E.U., naturally serves as a place to go to for a better life, no wonder it's inundated with immigrants from the E.U. Being part of the E.U., the English government cannot control its borders and filter immigrants from the E.U., all sorts of riff raff can enter, instead of those England believes will be a net contributor to England. Or is that just being selfish/politically incorrect/conservative/racist?

Of course as a Kiwi, I'm hoping that if the U.K. depart the E.U. then our exports to the U.K. will increase as a consequence.

We have nothing like the levels of immigration the UK has - and we CHOOSE our immigrants. For the most part the UK does not choose: if you have an EU passport, you can move in and claim benefits.

AFAIAC this has absolutely SFA to do with Victorian colonisation of the planet and the creation of a number of very pleasant nation states such as Canada, the USA, NZ, Australia and so on. Indeed, personally I would never have stopped doing it and neither would Britain if the two wars had not got in the way.

Out is the only sane answer but I very much doubt that will be the result. Worse still I think it will be a very close run vote, which will leave just under half the nation extremely cross.

ScuL

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#1559748 25-May-2016 23:49

I'll drop my $2c here..

As an EU national I have used my "freedom of movement" rights to live and work in the UK for 6 years prior to moving to NZ.

I have contributed my National Insurance payments, paid income tax and only sparingly used government facilities such as the NHS, JSA (for a few weeks) and so forth.
This is the case for approximately 3 million EU citizens residing in the UK.

Sadly these 3 million people are disqualified from voting on the matter as EU-nationals are banned from voting in this referendum. Somewhat shocking..

There are several mistakes that the BREXIT-supporters are making:
* Leaving the EU means that the UK will be expelled from the EEA (European Economic Area) and will need to reapply to receive renewed free trade agreements (subject to approval of other EU/EEA members)
* The EU contributions that are made by the UK on a yearly basis are repaid for by nearly 70% of expenditure in terms of subsidies and infrastructure projects. For instance the Severn Bridge between Bristol and Wales has largely been constructed with EU funding. Northern Ireland is one of the regions receiving the most contributions within the entire EU.
* Leaving the EU means that contributions will cease, however re-joining the EEA means that the contributions will have to continue. (EEA members pay EU-contributions without getting subsidies in return).
* Additionally as an EEA member the UK will have no influence at policy that will be defined by Brussels but will be forced to be subjected to that legislation regardless
* Leaving the EU/EEA altogether means that ALL produce that the UK intends to sell to the remainder of the EU will be taxed between 15% and 45% depending on the type of product, reducing Britain's competitiveness in the European open market
* Similarly, leaving the EU/EEA will mean that all EU-produce landing in UK retail outlets will be increased by similar percentages due to import duties & levies
* Immigration that is pestering the UK (and pretty much all of the EU countries) will not cease to exist when Britain leaves the UK as they largely consist of illegal migrants, this makes the biggest argument to leave void.
* The current situation allowing the Home Office to have border controls on French territory will lapse, meaning the border will be brought to Dover, and if the French will act like the French, they will then allow passengers to board ferries to the UK without checking documents for the Home Office in Dover to process them, basically giving a free passage from Calais into the UK
* The EU agreement with Turkey and Turkish citizens receiving free movement will have ZERO impact on the UK because the UK is not a member of the Schengen agreement. Turkish citizens will have to apply for visas to enter the UK, as is common today.
* The biggest magnet for immigrants wanting to move to the UK are the healthcare benefits, social housing benefits and job seekers benefits. These three combined form a huge attraction for potential migrants seeking a better life as they are unrestricted and do not discriminate on nationality nor residential status. <- key issue right here. To stop this pot of gold under the rainbow which is the huge driver for the migrant surge towards the UK, the system must be changed WITHIN THE UK, and not within the EU. Enforce restrictions based on time in the country and residential status, or off-set by NI contributions instead.
* Additionally, somewhat related but not quite, the UK is the only EU country that does not have national identity cards, allowing illegal migrants to go unregistered and work jobs in the underground job market with little risk of being found out. If national identity cards were mandatory in order to obtain access to services & benefits, the pot of gold will lose its sparkle

Somehow some Brits fantasise that leaving Europe is similar to pulling up the draw bridge, distancing Britain from "those mainland fools" and floating away peacefully towards the Atlantic.

The sad reality is that a BREXIT will destroy Britain's economy ( > 60% of trade is with EU member states), many Multinational/Corporate HQ's will abandon Britain for more favourable locations such as Brussels, Dublin or Amsterdam, and "The City", London's financial engine and the main catalyst of the modern day UK economy will grind to a halt being subject to huge levies, declining trade and will further spiral the UK towards the third world country it has started to become.

Haere taka mua, taka muri; kaua e wha.

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#1559767 26-May-2016 05:57

@ScuL enlightening, thank you

MikeB4

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#1559787 26-May-2016 08:32

The latest opinion poll has it at 46% stay 40% leave.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Geektastic

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#1559794 26-May-2016 08:45

ScuL:

I'll drop my $2c here..

As an EU national I have used my "freedom of movement" rights to live and work in the UK for 6 years prior to moving to NZ.

I have contributed my National Insurance payments, paid income tax and only sparingly used government facilities such as the NHS, JSA (for a few weeks) and so forth.
This is the case for approximately 3 million EU citizens residing in the UK.

Sadly these 3 million people are disqualified from voting on the matter as EU-nationals are banned from voting in this referendum. Somewhat shocking..

There are several mistakes that the BREXIT-supporters are making:
* Leaving the EU means that the UK will be expelled from the EEA (European Economic Area) and will need to reapply to receive renewed free trade agreements (subject to approval of other EU/EEA members)
* The EU contributions that are made by the UK on a yearly basis are repaid for by nearly 70% of expenditure in terms of subsidies and infrastructure projects. For instance the Severn Bridge between Bristol and Wales has largely been constructed with EU funding. Northern Ireland is one of the regions receiving the most contributions within the entire EU.
* Leaving the EU means that contributions will cease, however re-joining the EEA means that the contributions will have to continue. (EEA members pay EU-contributions without getting subsidies in return).
* Additionally as an EEA member the UK will have no influence at policy that will be defined by Brussels but will be forced to be subjected to that legislation regardless
* Leaving the EU/EEA altogether means that ALL produce that the UK intends to sell to the remainder of the EU will be taxed between 15% and 45% depending on the type of product, reducing Britain's competitiveness in the European open market
* Similarly, leaving the EU/EEA will mean that all EU-produce landing in UK retail outlets will be increased by similar percentages due to import duties & levies
* Immigration that is pestering the UK (and pretty much all of the EU countries) will not cease to exist when Britain leaves the UK as they largely consist of illegal migrants, this makes the biggest argument to leave void.
* The current situation allowing the Home Office to have border controls on French territory will lapse, meaning the border will be brought to Dover, and if the French will act like the French, they will then allow passengers to board ferries to the UK without checking documents for the Home Office in Dover to process them, basically giving a free passage from Calais into the UK
* The EU agreement with Turkey and Turkish citizens receiving free movement will have ZERO impact on the UK because the UK is not a member of the Schengen agreement. Turkish citizens will have to apply for visas to enter the UK, as is common today.
* The biggest magnet for immigrants wanting to move to the UK are the healthcare benefits, social housing benefits and job seekers benefits. These three combined form a huge attraction for potential migrants seeking a better life as they are unrestricted and do not discriminate on nationality nor residential status. <- key issue right here. To stop this pot of gold under the rainbow which is the huge driver for the migrant surge towards the UK, the system must be changed WITHIN THE UK, and not within the EU. Enforce restrictions based on time in the country and residential status, or off-set by NI contributions instead.
* Additionally, somewhat related but not quite, the UK is the only EU country that does not have national identity cards, allowing illegal migrants to go unregistered and work jobs in the underground job market with little risk of being found out. If national identity cards were mandatory in order to obtain access to services & benefits, the pot of gold will lose its sparkle

Somehow some Brits fantasise that leaving Europe is similar to pulling up the draw bridge, distancing Britain from "those mainland fools" and floating away peacefully towards the Atlantic.

The sad reality is that a BREXIT will destroy Britain's economy ( > 60% of trade is with EU member states), many Multinational/Corporate HQ's will abandon Britain for more favourable locations such as Brussels, Dublin or Amsterdam, and "The City", London's financial engine and the main catalyst of the modern day UK economy will grind to a halt being subject to huge levies, declining trade and will further spiral the UK towards the third world country it has started to become.

Leaving the EU would result in an immediate cost saving, as the country would no longer contribute to the EU budget. Last year, Britain paid in £13bn, but it also received £4.5bn worth of spending, says Full Fact "so the UK's net contribution was £8.5bn". That's about 70% net contribution after receipts.....!

Changing the law as regard to benefits would be great, but can you honestly see any government doing that in any meaningful way, regardless of it's political leanings? I can't, and since EU law specifically prohibits treating EU citizens from outside the home country as different to the citizens of the home country the problem will continue. Doubly so as long as they persist in continuing to admit countries largely filled with subsistence living peasants rather than countries that are of comparable economic status.

There is no logical reason why being out ought to be any more difficult than it is for any other country, European or not, that is not in the EU. It will only be as difficult as small minded Eurocrats want to make it as 'punishment' for daring to leave....

As to the ferry ports, well that would make them no different from the airports in essence - or make them exactly as they were before the hordes of migrants who should have been turned back at gunpoint long before they got to Calais actually got to Calais. The French thing is actually a relatively recent situation. There are a number of ways I can think of that would reduce that problem but few of them would be seen as politically acceptable in the rather wet world in which we find ourselves.

It certainly would not be a straightforward change. However, the EU has only itself to blame for the current bad feeling towards it. Had it not persisted in doing things that it was asked not to do, which were deeply unpopular amongst more than one member, had it actually protected the borders properly to prevent people who had no connection to the EU pouring in and then expected everyone to simply smile and say 'great - have my taxes whilst my own family go without' - had it, in essence, not been possessed of a hubris so great as to verge on the insane, then the referendum might actually never have occurred.

Even now, there is little evidence that the fact that around 50% of one of the larger members is not remotely happy is having any effect on their centralised thinking at all.

MikeB4

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#1559800 26-May-2016 08:56

@Geektastic after many weeks of campaigning in the UK what is your gut feeling as to what way the vote will go. Many of my family in the UK are very unsure but believe the stay vote will prevail. Your feelings?

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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