Downtown Auckland - Active shooter incident 2023-07-20

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Networkn
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#3108720 27-Jul-2023 11:12

shk292:

Also worth bearing in mind that:

If the Police had done their job properly in applying existing legislation, the ChCh mosque shooter would not have been granted a firearms licence, and
There is no evidence to suggest that the existence of a firearms register would have prevented the recent incident

The point is also

1) Someone prepared to plan and perform an attack like this, will not be deterred by legislation around legality of owning a particular type of weapon

2) The weapons that are being taken out of circulation (related to this legislation and buy-back), are only the ones that people are willing to give up. The type of people who perpetrate these attacks isn't going to give their weapons up willingly, let alone for money.

I personally don't feel like all of this will make an attack much less likely to happen. We are a country entirely surrounded by oceans.

tweake

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#3108728 27-Jul-2023 11:21

shk292:

Also worth bearing in mind that:

If the Police had done their job properly in applying existing legislation, the ChCh mosque shooter would not have been granted a firearms licence, and
There is no evidence to suggest that the existence of a firearms register would have prevented the recent incident

as firearms are recorded by police anyway, which is how they caught the guy who sold the guns to the whangerai shooter, clearly a register is not much of a deterrent.

one of the factor to the chch was the proposed reduction in firearm staff (no doubt trying to cut costs), something i discussed with the local ao here who was not happy with it. one good thing to come out of it was now they have increased the staff and funding for it.

but the underlying issue remains, which this breech highlights. an underfunded, under resourced police force that is not taking the firearm job all that seriously. its just a matter of time until they come under pressure to cut corners. there is some sense in taking that responsibility and cost away from police so it can be done without interference.

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#3108760 27-Jul-2023 13:29

networkn: 1) Someone prepared to plan and perform an attack like this, will not be deterred by legislation around legality of owning a particular type of weapon

Clearly you're referring to the tragic events in Christchurch. In that particular case the individual from overseas after arriving in NZ then legally obtained an NZ firearms license and legally purchased all the offensive weapons in New Zealand and trained in the use of those weapons at a gun club in New Zealand. In contrast - that individual would have encountered significant barriers to obtaining those weapons illegally in New Zealand vastly increasing the chance of discovery and interception.

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#3108764 27-Jul-2023 13:54

Wombat1: I think you are misinterpreting things here. You are correct that ACT wants to scrap the registry, but its not like their will not be a registry.

ACT have more or less stated some firearms will not require registration. ACT have stated registration will be retained for pistols and some 'restricted' firearms. That strongly implies ACT does not want or support registration for some firearms.

Going into some detail - in electioneering ACT's predominant public statements are they will scrap the whole thing. I'm aware that's not an accurate representation of their actual policy but that's what ACT keep saying in public statements when quoted. ACTs actual policy is have a Royal Commission level inquiry or report on firearms in NZ and then implement the result you know minus any bits they don't like as political parties do.

networkn

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#3108765 27-Jul-2023 13:57

gzt:
Clearly you're referring to the tragic events in Christchurch. In that particular case the individual from overseas after arriving in NZ then legally obtained an NZ firearms license and legally purchased all the offensive weapons in New Zealand and trained in the use of those weapons at a gun club in New Zealand. In contrast - that individual would have encountered significant barriers to obtaining those weapons illegally in New Zealand vastly increasing the chance of discovery and interception.

Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I disagree. Despite the buyback and current adjusted rules to gun ownership, I believe there are a number of ways someone determined could obtain a weapon similar to the one used, without detection, even if that was 'significantly' more difficult than it was previously (Which relatively isn't that hard). That doesn't even begin to cover all the other ways you could kill a significant number of people without access to restricted items.

Consider this. Despite the number of drugs that are intercepted at the border, drugs are still readily available in NZ and are consumed in considerable quantity, far in excess of what we are manufacturing. How do you think they are getting here?

Wombat1

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#3108773 27-Jul-2023 14:14

gzt:
Wombat1: I think you are misinterpreting things here. You are correct that ACT wants to scrap the registry, but its not like their will not be a registry.

ACT have more or less stated some firearms will not require registration. ACT have stated registration will be retained for pistols and some 'restricted' firearms. That strongly implies ACT does not want or support registration for some firearms.

Going into some detail - in electioneering ACT's predominant public statements are they will scrap the whole thing. I'm aware that's not an accurate representation of their actual policy but that's what ACT keep saying in public statements when quoted. ACTs actual policy is have a Royal Commission level inquiry or report on firearms in NZ and then implement the result you know minus any bits they don't like as political parties do.

Ok so now it’s “some firearms”! That’s not what you implied earlier. Can you provide some backups to your claims of them publicly saying they will scrap the whole thing. That is against their policy so I will be very surprised if it were true.

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#3108875 27-Jul-2023 20:33

Wombat1: Can you provide some backups to your claims of them publicly saying they will scrap the whole thing.

I provided that reference in an earlier post in the topic on page 4. Those statements are crystal clear in the article linked.

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gzt

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#3108880 27-Jul-2023 20:57

Wombat1: Can you provide some backups to your claims of them publicly saying they will scrap the whole thing.

and more recently here from a different outlet on page 7 of this topic. The ACT quote in that particular article does mention ACT's proposed replacement and the limited scope of ACT's response strongly implies that proposed authority after repeal will do nothing more than administer the previous regime.

Wombat1

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#3111679 4-Aug-2023 08:31

Just read of another downtown Auckland shooting this morning.

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/auckland/two-people-shot-critically-hurt-on-auckland-s-queen-st-shooter-flees-on-scooter/

Handsomedan

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#3111708 4-Aug-2023 09:17

Wombat1: Just read of another downtown Auckland shooting this morning.

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/auckland/two-people-shot-critically-hurt-on-auckland-s-queen-st-shooter-flees-on-scooter/

Why you'd flee a shooting on a Lime Scooter is beyond me.
They're geo-fenced and can only go just above walking pace in the CBD.

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Nate001

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#3111743 4-Aug-2023 10:58

Handsomedan:

Why you'd flee a shooting on a Lime Scooter is beyond me.
They're geo-fenced and can only go just above walking pace in the CBD.

Don't there is a lot of rational thinking happening, after you just shot two people.

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#3111752 4-Aug-2023 11:25

tweake:

as firearms are recorded by police anyway, which is how they caught the guy who sold the guns to the whangerai shooter, clearly a register is not much of a deterrent.

A firearms register is a list of addresses that firearms are held at. That is info that can potentially be furnished to criminals by corrupt police officers. For that reason, I wouldn't personally support a firearm register.

Mike

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#3111767 4-Aug-2023 12:31

MikeAqua:

tweake:

as firearms are recorded by police anyway, which is how they caught the guy who sold the guns to the whangerai shooter, clearly a register is not much of a deterrent.

A firearms register is a list of addresses that firearms are held at. That is info that can potentially be furnished to criminals by corrupt police officers. For that reason, I wouldn't personally support a firearm register.

And that list may already been leaked in 2019.

NZ gun registry privacy breach spilt owners' addresses - Security - Software - Storage - iTnews

shk292

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#3111787 4-Aug-2023 13:39

MikeAqua:

A firearms register is a list of addresses that firearms are held at. That is info that can potentially be furnished to criminals by corrupt police officers. For that reason, I wouldn't personally support a firearm register.

Agreed - and there is a big difference between recording all FAL's addresses, and recording every firearm held. The latter makes those holding multiple firearms particularly attractive targets for a burglary or home invasion should the info fall into the wrong hands - as it inevitably will at some stage. I'm sure most FAL holders will be putting off submitting their papers to the police until the last minute, in the hope ACT will be able to have this flawed and unnecessary legislation overturned

ezbee

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#3111827 4-Aug-2023 16:19

So gun and hunting clubs don't keep registers of their members, with addresses?
Confirmation of their license status and such.
Or record what events people may participate in a leaderboard for different types of competitions?

What details does your gun shop account keep on you?

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