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Topic # 30002 26-Jan-2009 17:03
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did you hear about the armed offenders squad member who's bullet killed an innocent person?:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10553601

it is a sad thing but the armed offenders squad member should be charged and i reckon he will get home detention for a few years and not be allowed back into the police. sure he was trying to kill the gunman and accidentally killed an innocent person but people still have to be punished for accidents. it is the law.
 if i am driving my car and accidentally hit someone and they die, i would be charged not with murder, but with manslaughter. heaps of people who did this have been charged like that because i have seen it in the papers and news loads of times.
 so i bet the armed offenders squad member will be charged with manslaughter. who thinks i am right?

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  Reply # 192147 26-Jan-2009 17:10
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It was a accident by the AOS member while doing there job protecting the NZ public from a crack pot out on the streets the blame should be passed onto the nut case that caused all this mayhem.

John

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  Reply # 192148 26-Jan-2009 17:11
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Peter Manglethwaite thinks you're right:





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  Reply # 192152 26-Jan-2009 17:22
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My feeling is when you go into an AOS job, your taught how to handle firearms and inflicting a fatal injury comes with the job.
I would need to know more info before deciding if he should be charged, e.g if the AOS member had the person targetted and the innocent by-stander is pulled in the way of the bullet within "reaction" time of pulling the trigger then there was nothing he can do.
I feel if anything the AOS person will be feeling bad enough for this without having to answer to a judge for doing his job.

my 2c.

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  Reply # 192154 26-Jan-2009 17:40
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Don't agree..

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Reply # 192155 26-Jan-2009 17:44
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stagnant16: Don't agree..


With what?

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  Reply # 192162 26-Jan-2009 18:21
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johnr:

With what?


With the officer being charged with manslaughter.. 

If the Police report comes back that he was totally derelict of his duty maybe, but do we need a Police Force that will not act for fear of what may happen?

He will have to live with this for the rest of his life, what does a conviction achieve.

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  Reply # 192170 26-Jan-2009 19:16
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richgamer: ...people still have to be punished for accidents. it is the law.

Which law is that exactly?
richgamer: if i am driving my car and accidentally hit someone and they die, i would be charged not with murder, but with manslaughter.

Not necessarily - it depends, as does everything, on the circumstances.  Instead of the highest level charge you have already specified, you could be charged with reckless driving causing injury/death, dangerous driving causing injury/death or careless driving causing injury/death.  However, I fail to see how your theoretical driving incident even closely equates with this topic.

Currently on TV they're talking about "if you go hunting and mistake your mate for a deer and shoot him you will get charged for what is clearly an accidental shooting" which is an entirely different set of circumstances again.  Let's face facts - deer don't shoot back, so there is no pressure to take a shot in the first place.  If you don't clearly identify your target and you shoot your mate, then it's only fair you get charged.  I also disagree with term "accident" in relation to shootings.

People don't accidentally get shot.  Someone either has the weapon in an unsafe state or deliberately pulls the trigger.  in the deer hunting case, someone deliberately pulled the trigger after failing to clearly identify their target.  In the real life case to which this topic pertains, a member of police (AOS aren't necessarily all males so I won't say he or him...) has deliberately pulled the trigger after clearly identifying their target.

However, very sadly, the projectile has hit an unintended target for reasons which we are not yet privy.  If the enquiry into this shooting shows there was recklessness or negligence on the part of the member, then yes - charges will be laid.  And on the face of it, the AOS member was acting lawfully in the execution of their duty which excludes any "intent" (mens rea) which is a necessary part of most crimes.

Edit: I was wondering how long it would take you to post on this subject - 2 days...lol.

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  Reply # 192173 26-Jan-2009 19:59
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only my 2c here . . .
i don't know the full story, how it happened, who was were and all the rest of it. but i do feel that a charge of some sort should be laid against the aos who pulled the trigger. i know it was an accident but people get charged over accidents daily, just because the person who the fired the shot is on the other side of the law, does not mean the law still doesn't apply?

my feelings with the family . .

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  Reply # 192180 26-Jan-2009 21:39
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While it is awful that an innocent member of the pulic lost their life in the course of the police dealing with this nutter, I don't think we should be jumping on the Police and in particular the AoS. These are specialists who are trained to deal with these types of incidents. However the general public aren't... Why was the body of the person killed lying in the back of his van? Did he move into the line of fire when told to not move? Who knows.

And also it wasn't just one AoS member who fired...There was two. The police will be able to tell which one fired the shot and by now most likely do. But the fact that two seperate officers choose to fire means that they both independant of each other saw the need to do so.

So I think it is WAY to early to be judging based on the information on the TV News/Newspapers. We all know that the police will know way more than what they are releasing to the media.

But in the course of time if it proves that the officer concerned did fire in a reckless manner then yes charges should be laid.

My two cents worth.




 

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  Reply # 192205 27-Jan-2009 07:44
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richgamer: did you hear about the armed offenders squad member who's bullet killed an innocent person?:

No. I must have been living under a rock.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10553601

Ohhhhh THAT one....

Yup.

it is a sad thing but the armed offenders squad member should be charged

Why is that, Mr Investigator/Prosecutor/District Commander/Judge/Minister? (sorry, not sure which role is being assumed here).

and i reckon he will get home detention for a few years and not be allowed back into the police

"i reckon" that neither of those things will happen. If he faces any charges, I would be totally shocked and surprised if the AOS member recieved any kind of detention at all - home or otherwise.

but people still have to be punished for accidents. it is the law.

Please tell me which law this is. It seems to be the basis of your (weak) argument. If you can tell me which law says "people still have to be punished for their accidents." then I will bow to your superior knowledge and opinion.

if i am driving my car

Oh noes!!! You drive???

and accidentally hit someone and they die, i would be charged not with murder, but with manslaughter. heaps of people who did this have been charged like that because i have seen it in the papers and news loads of times.

Which times, which papers, which news, what dates, which incidents. How did we get onto car accidents?

I have a friend who hit and killed someone, and was not charged with anything, because the person killed was being reckless on the road - running across, giving my friend zero possibility of avoidance.

Are you saying my friend absolutely and utterly should have been charged with manslaughter?

Or is your argument falling to bits here.

Educate me as to which it is please.

so i bet the armed offenders squad member will be charged with manslaughter. who thinks i am right?

Not I.

My opinion on this:

I would like to see a full, thorough, and fair investigation into this incident. I would like to see the police/govt provide whatever assistance the innocent mans family requires, as a direct result of this incident. I would like to see the staff member concerned given due consideration regarding the type of job he was expected to perform. I would expect that he may be stood down from AOS for some minimum period of time (or permanently depending on his state of mind and investigation findings). Hopefully there is still a place in the NZ Police for him. He was trying to do his job, and protect innocent people.

It is an absolute tragedy, that would never have happened if the offender had not committed approximately 30 known offences including firearms offences leading up to the incident.

My thoughts are with the family of the dead man, and the AOS officer and his family.







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Reply # 192207 27-Jan-2009 08:15
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Props to Dratsab... hadn't read your reply before I posted mine.

You are my forum wingman, my brother from another mother walking beside me in the valley of silicon.

bwahaahahahahahahaa







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  Reply # 192213 27-Jan-2009 09:04
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richgamer: did you hear about the armed offenders squad member who's bullet killed an innocent person?:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10553601

it is a sad thing but the armed offenders squad member should be charged and i reckon he will get home detention for a few years and not be allowed back into the police. sure he was trying to kill the gunman and accidentally killed an innocent person but people still have to be punished for accidents. it is the law.
 if i am driving my car and accidentally hit someone and they die, i would be charged not with murder, but with manslaughter. heaps of people who did this have been charged like that because i have seen it in the papers and news loads of times.
 so i bet the armed offenders squad member will be charged with manslaughter. who thinks i am right?


You should write a book on your current observations of the New Zealand legal system, I'd buy a copy.

Let's put it this way, if you were driving your car and another car began swerving at you trying to kill you and you fearing for your life then swerved back at the "offending" vehicle to try and stop them and accidentally killed an innocent person would you be charged with manslaughter?

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  Reply # 192217 27-Jan-2009 09:31
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tonyhughes:

I would like to see a full, thorough, and fair investigation into this incident. I would like to see the police/govt provide whatever assistance the innocent mans family requires, as a direct result of this incident. I would like to see the staff member concerned given due consideration regarding the type of job he was expected to perform. I would expect that he may be stood down from AOS for some minimum period of time (or permanently depending on his state of mind and investigation findings). Hopefully there is still a place in the NZ Police for him. He was trying to do his job, and protect innocent people.

It is an absolute tragedy, that would never have happened if the offender had not committed approximately 30 known offences including firearms offences leading up to the incident.

My thoughts are with the family of the dead man, and the AOS officer and his family.


^^^ Good post.




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  Reply # 192223 27-Jan-2009 10:24
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And now the offender wants to use his P-taking binge as a defence.

 

Sorry dude, if you take drugs then you should accept the consequences.





 

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  Reply # 192224 27-Jan-2009 10:28
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Hey, we killed somebody, but we got the baddie!

Honestly, there's no "good" way to look at it. Something awful happened and that's that. Sure, somebody screwed up but nothing's gong to fix that. Life is full of uncertainties and every single one of us could get mauled by a psychopath everytime we go out, and there's no guarantees or safety nets. Sometimes, just sometimes, we shouldn't be looking for a scapegoat or somebody to lay blame on, and just get on with recovering and moving forward.... because otherwise this will be a scab that will never heal (especially if the blood-thirsty media get their way!).




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