Copper Services Investigation

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#3367809 26-Apr-2025 22:42

Asteros:

I have had a great experience with Starlink in a rural area not served well by FWA, a WISP or UFB. I think it's an amazing company/service and can't think of why anyone would hesitate to install it if they can afford it.

I'd hazard a guess that there will be multiple performant LEO sat options by 2030, and with multiple options, good enough competition to keep costs reasonable and users mostly shielded from overseas political shenanigans.

Therefore I wonder how much of an issue the copper withdrawal will really be for the 99% of consumer services affected. The remaining 1% will presumably have a specific business use case that may require a business or enterprise solution - and that's just part of being located where they are.

While I absolutely agree Starlink is a game changer, leaving our rural connectivity in the sole hands of a single overseas provider would be a high risk move, so perhaps the withdrawal date needs to be set based on when a certain number of viable alternative options exist, rather than an arbitrary date.

MichaelNZ

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#3367814 26-Apr-2025 23:17

Having worked in the internet industry since the 1990's, I can state the following with certainty -

2 or 3 competitors is no competitors

The government can not make a monopoly or duopoly compete because the players are well ahead of the politicians

Handing a proportion of the NZ internet market to a company like Starlink will turn out badly for all the obvious reasons

The only reason NZ has such great internet in many areas is because of UFB with the regulated open access model

Most ISP's will not rollout something independently for rural areas because the bulk of the client base is not here. Therefore rural areas need to piggyback on population centre infrastructure.

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cddt

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#3367820 27-Apr-2025 07:07

MichaelNZ:

Handing a proportion of the NZ internet market to a company like Starlink will turn out badly for all the obvious reasons

If Musk decides we've offended him somehow (a mean tweet?) he could arbitrarily 10x the price for all NZ subscribers. No regulation here can touch that company.

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RunningMan

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#3367831 27-Apr-2025 10:00

Asteros:

I have had a great experience with Starlink in a rural area not served well by FWA, a WISP or UFB. I think it's an amazing company/service and can't think of why anyone would hesitate to install it if they can afford it.

1) It's unregulated and at the mercy of overseas control, be that pricing, availability or quality. This makes it troublesome for long term planning or dependency.

2) The Musk factor. There's a fairly big group of people who have no intention of buying any product linked to him.

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#3367973 27-Apr-2025 15:03

RunningMan:

Asteros:

I have had a great experience with Starlink in a rural area not served well by FWA, a WISP or UFB. I think it's an amazing company/service and can't think of why anyone would hesitate to install it if they can afford it.

1) It's unregulated and at the mercy of overseas control, be that pricing, availability or quality. This makes it troublesome for long term planning or dependency.

2) The Musk factor. There's a fairly big group of people who have no intention of buying any product linked to him.

1) Is a reasonable concern

2) You make a choice and wear the consequences. If someone objects to a particular provider that’s on them to deal with the consequences of that. If your particular view of the world means you won’t deal with Starlink then please don’t complain you can’t get decent internet.

MichaelNZ

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#3367988 27-Apr-2025 15:55

Handle9:

2) You make a choice and wear the consequences. If someone objects to a particular provider that’s on them to deal with the consequences of that. If your particular view of the world means you won’t deal with Starlink then please don’t complain you can’t get decent internet.

No amount of Musk's whining will alter the fact he is a fascist and people don't like fascists and don't want to worship him either. So therefore all his problems are self inflicted.

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#3367999 27-Apr-2025 16:11

MichaelNZ:

Handle9:

2) You make a choice and wear the consequences. If someone objects to a particular provider that’s on them to deal with the consequences of that. If your particular view of the world means you won’t deal with Starlink then please don’t complain you can’t get decent internet.

No amount of Musk's whining will alter the fact he is a fascist and people don't like fascists and don't want to worship him either. So therefore all his problems are self inflicted.

If you don’t want to deal with a company that’s entirely your choice. You of course need to bear any associated costs.

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RunningMan

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#3368073 27-Apr-2025 18:26

Handle9: 2) You make a choice and wear the consequences. If someone objects to a particular provider that’s on them to deal with the consequences of that. If your particular view of the world means you won’t deal with Starlink then please don’t complain you can’t get decent internet.

I don't believe it's quite that simplistic. Having an internet connection in NZ is considered just about as essential as water and electricity. And that, or a similar view must have been front of mind when UFB was planned and introduced all that time ago, so this isn't some new outlook. Again, this view is reinforced by the regulation and shaping of the industry by government intervention from the initial division of Telecom into retail and wholesale arms. Further the development of RBI to cover areas without fixed line access implies the same thing.

It's the potential removal of some of those fixed line services that prompted the OP to start this thread.

Given that importance of connectivity, and similarly the importance that has also been placed on having a locally controlled/delivered solution, moving to a system where the only available connection is via an international company to areas the size of the OP's location seems at odds with how everywhere else has been planned and delivered.

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#3368085 27-Apr-2025 19:15

RunningMan:

Given that importance of connectivity, and similarly the importance that has also been placed on having a locally controlled/delivered solution, moving to a system where the only available connection is via an international company to areas the size of the OP's location seems at odds with how everywhere else has been planned and delivered.

It was never envisaged that there would be universal access to the same level of service. The orginal UFB project was never scoped to cover 100% of the coppper footprint and the RBI was never scoped to include all areas that weren't covered by UFB.

We have to accept that if you live in a remote place then you have some things in your life which are less available than if you live in a city or town. That's just the way it is, you can't have all the nice things that come with being in a rural area and not accept the negatives.

If there are alternatives available to you and you won't use them, for whatever reason, it's a you problem and you should not be looking to the government to provide you a service provider you have no objections to using. You should be taking responsibility for your choices and accepting that there will be a personal cost.

MichaelNZ

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#3368086 27-Apr-2025 19:19

Handle9:

We have to accept that if you live in a remote place then you have some things in your life which are less available than if you live in a city or town. That's just the way it is, you can't have all the nice things that come with being in a rural area and not accept the negatives.

Where do you live...?

Because unless its in an apartment in the inner city you likely don't justify UFB.

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#3368089 27-Apr-2025 19:31

MichaelNZ:

Handle9:

We have to accept that if you live in a remote place then you have some things in your life which are less available than if you live in a city or town. That's just the way it is, you can't have all the nice things that come with being in a rural area and not accept the negatives.

Where do you live...?

Because unless its in an apartment in the inner city you likely don't justify UFB.

I live in Dubai.

My house in New Zealand doesn't have town water. I'm fine with that and don't feel it's the governments job to provide me with town water, or supply water in summer for free when the tank runs dry. It's a choice we made to have our house where it is and we deal with the consequences.

RunningMan

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#3368090 27-Apr-2025 19:41

Handle9:

We have to accept that if you live in a remote place then you have some things in your life which are less available than if you live in a city or town.

Yep, you've hit the nail on the head. The OP lives in a small town, not a remote place, so having access to connections other than Starlink doesn't seem that unreasonable does it?

RunningMan

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#3368091 27-Apr-2025 19:45

Handle9:

My house in New Zealand doesn't have town water. I'm fine with that and don't feel it's the governments job to provide me with town water, or supply water in summer for free when the tank runs dry. It's a choice we made to have our house where it is and we deal with the consequences.

You choosing to go without something when you (presumably) purchased the property is fine, but the OP is in a potential situation where something is being taken away and not replaced after having moved there. Not really a comparable prospect.

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#3368096 27-Apr-2025 19:59

RunningMan:

Handle9:

We have to accept that if you live in a remote place then you have some things in your life which are less available than if you live in a city or town.

Yep, you've hit the nail on the head. The OP lives in a small town, not a remote place, so having access to connections other than Starlink doesn't seem that unreasonable does it?

OP has access to a number of different options. Starlink is only one of those.

Their consistent position, over a long period of time, has been that they should have access to the same range of options as larger settlements at no cost to the community.

In my view that is not a reasonable position.

NeillB

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#3368097 27-Apr-2025 20:03

RunningMan:

Handle9:

My house in New Zealand doesn't have town water. I'm fine with that and don't feel it's the governments job to provide me with town water, or supply water in summer for free when the tank runs dry. It's a choice we made to have our house where it is and we deal with the consequences.

You choosing to go without something when you (presumably) purchased the property is fine, but the OP is in a potential situation where something is being taken away and not replaced after having moved there. Not really a comparable prospect.

Exactly! When we moved here 8 years ago we were very careful to check the mobile phone coverage and internet as both of those things were deal breakers.

Prior to settlement the property had ADSL which we had upgraded to VDSL ready for when we moved in. We get a little over 40mbps.
There was mobile coverage in the form of 3G. Now that has gone and we have at the most 1 bar on 4G and 5G. So no reliable mobile phone service, initially we used a "Sure Signal" pico cell box from Vodafone. These days we rely on WiFi calling.
There is no fibre, no WISP and no FWA.
The satellite solution offered by Gravity has hopeless upload speed and latency making it useless for Wifi calling and video conferencing which is essential when working from home.
Having to rely on an overseas company for making emergency phone calls and working from home is far from ideal.

That's "progress" for you.

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