Copper Services Investigation

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MichaelNZ

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#319123 24-Mar-2025 16:40

Anyone on copper services (ADSL and VDSL) will likely be affected by this and should make a submission.

At present Chorus has to rollout UFB in an affected area before turning off the copper network. This has already happened in parts of Auckland and I think we are all in agreement this is logical and fine.

The change they are seeking here is to decommission all copper services by 2030 regardless of UFB status and force those users to whatever they can get (if anything)

Chorus have no UFB rollout commitment past "mid 2025".

Copper Services Investigation under section 69AH of the Telecommunications Act

Report to the Minister for Media and Communications on whether
Schedule 1 should be altered in respect of regulation of the relevant copper
services
Draft recommendation report

Link to PDF

Key points:

Only copper (ADSL and VDSL) and UFB services are open access and regulated allowing customers to chose from a large range of ISP's
Wireless service operators are likely holding their prices down due to competition from copper. If this was no longer an option they could increase their prices and not need to provide any level of service.
The status quo requires Chorus to migrate areas to UFB so they can turn off the copper network in that area. If they can get out of it anyway they no longer have this incentive.
Chorus own marketing claims issues with wireless: Sharing bandwidth? It might be why your internet is slow. and Wireless broadband fine print: Avoid sharing
WISP (wireless ISP's) at risk from Starlink. Real possibility of this foreign owned company becoming the only provider in non-UFB areas.

WFH Linux Systems and Networks Engineer in the Internet industry | Specialising in Mikrotik | APNIC member | Open to job offers | ZL2NET

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#3356964 24-Mar-2025 18:47

What outcome are you seeking from making a submission? I'm on fibre so this doesn't impact me but I have a few family members on copper still.

MichaelNZ

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#3356965 24-Mar-2025 18:55

quickymart:

What outcome are you seeking from making a submission? I'm on fibre so this doesn't impact me but I have a few family members on copper still.

My submission is in favour of retaining the status quo. This helps provide Chorus the right incentives to continue on the UFB rollout past 2025.

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richms

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#3356968 24-Mar-2025 19:28

82 pages of dry PDF, ugh, no thanks.

Chorus are really stuck with a white elephant with the rural copper network. No one else would want to take it on, its costing them more than it earns and they cant just get rid of it.

WISPs are not a viable alternative while they have a monopoly over the use of the network. If you get cut off from one because of a ToS violation, billing dispute etc then you are offline permanantly. The only way that they are an alternative is if they are also an open access network that anyone can resell over. Same thing disqualifies starlink from being a viable alternative unless there is regulation that they must provide service.

Perhaps chorus need to start forming or buying/partnering with WISPs that they can wholesale over in these areas to be able to remove copper from them?

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MichaelNZ

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#3356971 24-Mar-2025 19:33

richms:

82 pages of dry PDF, ugh, no thanks.

Point taken.

But if you don't submit then they will take it as acceptance.

You don't need to read the whole thing - I have posted some points in my OP.

richms:

Perhaps chorus need to start forming or buying/partnering with WISPs that they can wholesale over in these areas to be able to remove copper from them?

Chorus is open about their intention to be a fibre only company. Which makes sense as long as they push ahead with building the network.

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richms

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#3356973 24-Mar-2025 19:39

Im not rural, and those I know that are have either fibre because it wasn't that expensive to get installed or else are happy with wireless options. So I say turn it off already. 5 years is pretty close but if the copper is there and still "working" then there is no incentive for WISPs or other networks to build. Why would a lines company install fibre if there is a good chance that chorus will just get handed a bucket of money to overbuild their copper with fibre in the same area?

5 years to get a starlink install? Easy as. Will still have the whiners like with every other shut off that claim they had no idea it was happening so why prolong it?

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MichaelNZ

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#3356976 24-Mar-2025 19:50

richms:

Im not rural, and those I know that are have either fibre because it wasn't that expensive to get installed or else are happy with wireless options.

Then this thread isn't for you.

I am not here to debate with those who have fibre. Good for them. They got their free installs so they are happy.

There are a substantial number (Over 200,000) who are still on copper and its them who this is aimed at.

I will add had Chorus been left to make their own rules the UFB rollout would likely be far less then it is. Because there are a lot of areas which have been deployed which likely would not have if Chorus stuck with the leafy suburbs in large cities.

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quickymart

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#3356992 24-Mar-2025 20:18

Part of the issue with copper as I understand it is is the network is quite old now, which I imagine would make replacement parts etc quite difficult to come by (hence the closure this year of the CMAR network), so I can understand why they would want copper users to migrate to a (newer) technology.

MichaelNZ:

There are a substantial number (Over 200,000) who are still on copper and its them who this is aimed at.

Also, this number isn't quite accurate - where did you get this from?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/132073093/chorus-to-completely-axe-copper-services-within-10-years

From May 2023 - almost 2 years ago:

A decade ago, Chorus had almost 1.8 million customers on copper, but that number had declined as people moved to fibre and alternative technologies. Today, there were about 120,000 customers left on copper services in non-fibre areas.

MichaelNZ

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#3356994 24-Mar-2025 20:33

MichaelNZ:

There are a substantial number (Over 200,000) who are still on copper and its them who this is aimed at.

quickymart:

Also, this number isn't quite accurate - where did you get this from?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/132073093/chorus-to-completely-axe-copper-services-within-10-years

Pages 25 and 26 of the linked document.

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quickymart

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#3357042 24-Mar-2025 20:48

Ah well, put your submission forward and make your voice heard then. Good luck.

nztim

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#3357185 25-Mar-2025 11:18

I would be happy for my taxpayer bucks to be spend rolling out more fiber, I am sure a fraction of my $85 I pay to my ISP is been used by chorus to maintain the copper network

Any views expressed on these forums are my own and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.

KiwiSurfer

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#3357258 25-Mar-2025 13:17

Of the 120k that have no access to UFB, how much of that also have no access to FWB? Not a lot I would wager.

I would be in favor of copper withdrawal as long as there is a UFB or FWB alternative provided via a LFC (for UFB) or at least one of the 3 mobile carriers (for FWB).

However if neither are available then I would advocate not for the retention of copper, but instead I would advocate for the govt to either fund the extension of UFB to those locations (if practicable -- most likely not but there may be some areas on the edge of current UFB coverage that may make this a somewhat viable option) or failing that, fund RCG to extend their network to those locations.

It is simply not practicable nor sensible to continue with copper -- especially when it is possible to deploy alternatives (and in fact some of these alternatives already exist).

/2cents

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danfaulknor

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#3357260 25-Mar-2025 13:26

FWA/Satellite/WISP are all well and good, but we (ISPs) can't do managed services over those like we can over copper (and UFB). Things like WANs. VPN is fine but you end up with a smaller MTU which is at best annoying and at worst causes issues. Not to mention the lack of QoS (even DSL has options for high class traffic with EUBA180 etc).

Some of our customers are getting a solid 100/20 on VDSL or more, so moving to FWA/Satellite can be a downgrade in terms of overall connection quality.

I do agree that copper is not the path forward - the copper network is old and prone to faults, and not commercially viable for Chorus to continue. Extending the UFB network as much as possible would be the ideal solution.

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wellygary

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#3357263 25-Mar-2025 13:44

MichaelNZ:

Pages 25 and 26 of the linked document.

That is Coverage, not connections,

2 days ago Chorus posted this "roadshow" for investors on the NZX.

https://api.nzx.com/public/announcement/448920/attachment/440222/448920-440222.pdf

KiwiSurfer

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#3357293 25-Mar-2025 15:00

danfaulknor:

FWA/Satellite/WISP are all well and good, but we (ISPs) can't do managed services over those like we can over copper (and UFB). Things like WANs. VPN is fine but you end up with a smaller MTU which is at best annoying and at worst causes issues. Not to mention the lack of QoS (even DSL has options for high class traffic with EUBA180 etc).

Some of our customers are getting a solid 100/20 on VDSL or more, so moving to FWA/Satellite can be a downgrade in terms of overall connection quality.

I do agree that copper is not the path forward - the copper network is old and prone to faults, and not commercially viable for Chorus to continue. Extending the UFB network as much as possible would be the ideal solution.

I would say the vast majority of the DSL connections are just households which would be fine with FWA (such as the 34k in the figures above that only have voice services -- they would be well served either switching to mobile or a FWA phone line). Out of the 88k still on ADSL/DSL, if they actually do need managed services they will just need to pay for it to be delivered some other way if it's not viable to fund UFB expansion to their location.

The 1k copper data is interesting tho -- is that the likes of ISDN/E1/etc etc?

wellygary

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#3357299 25-Mar-2025 15:20

KiwiSurfer:

The 1k copper data is interesting tho -- is that the likes of ISDN/E1/etc etc?

Back in the day there were a considerable number of local councils etc that would run telemetry data for things like river and rainfall gauges over copper dial up connections,

I imagine most have gone cellular or wireless, but there are probably still a few "way out" in the wops still ticking over...

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