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#1999002 18-Apr-2018 22:50

I would say you have more chance of picking up an STD from picking up ramdoms from a bar, tinder and casual relationships. Prostutes know this is there livelihood and are tested regularly

MikeAqua

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#1999148 19-Apr-2018 09:43

nunz:

MikeAqua:

nunz:

If it is judgemental to stand for something then I am judgemental but I would rather stand for something than fall for everything.

I'm not religious in any way, but out of curiosity I've read several religious texts.

Perhaps you should have a read of what the new testament has to say about judgement.

Like 1 corinthians ....

I was thinking more of the whole "Judge not" speech. It's in Matthew. (unfortunately I was dragged to church three times a week as a kid). Basically means live and let live, sort your own issues and mind your own business. Actually pretty good advice for life.

The extent to which some Christians seek to define in-groups and alienate out-groups is hard to reconcile with the supposed overall theme of love and forgiveness.

Mike

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#1999171 19-Apr-2018 10:24

kingdragonfly: Regarding the gospels, it's not an eye-witness account. The authors wrote at least 35 years later, possibly 65 years later.

The earliest, and incomplete, New Testament text is a business-card-sized fragment 200 years after Jesus's death.

Lastly it's been translated and retranslated many times.

The Bible is a guide, not a literal account of events.

Nunz: I personally am an anarchist by desire. True anarchy has the opportunity to be the most ideal expression of the good in humans - but is an impracticable ideal as we need to agree on conventions to make society work .(e.g which side of the road to ride on).

I'm annoyed that you express any desire for anarchy.

I find an anarchist will always dislike anarchy once they get beaten up or their stuff gets stolen.

Do you see how your current views of no separation between religious and state laws are in fact very close to Sharia / Islamic law?

I suspect you don't like Sharia law in the mid-east. Perhaps you should rethink supporting religious law as state law here.

dude - John was at the last supper. Mathew the tax collector was with Jesus.

Luke went around collecting eye witness accounts. Check out the book of acts where they choose a new apostle. The critera was had to have been with Jesus through his ministry, had to have seen him die, had to have seen him after the resurrection. These are the people Luke interviews for his gospel - PUBLISHED (not written) approximately 35 years after Jesus death.

"1Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilleda among us, 2just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught."

When he says Dear Theophilus - I have sort to gather together an accurate account - he means just that - he talked with the eye witnesses. or do you think a serious historian was lying and there is a conspiracy to put fiction into the world? if so who is leading the cosnspiracy? not the church - they weren't an established church organisation back then - just folks believing someones message and getting burned as faggots by the emperor.

Also the word eye witness is a technical word - it means someone tasked with keeping the tradition / word / oral tradition and bringing it out during church / temple services. The Jews had a history of oral recitation and got together especially to preserve these stories in an exact form. The gathered group at these recitations were very quick to remove error and ensure a correct recitation. Think Fahrenheit 451 type work, or Book of Eli.

Jesus died around AD 32 / 33. The people who were with him died between then and the 90 ad's and all the gospels were written by then.

To continue to say it is not an eye witness account is denying what the gospel writers wrote, the testimony of the early church fathers / mothers, plain history, hundreds of translated texts in both the eastern and western churches, roman legal documentation, the writings of heretics and detractors and many others. i don't know where you got this idea it is not an eye witness account from but it is just plain incorrect - end of story.

Also the dead sea scrolls were circa 70 ad - not 200 years later.

As for the bible being literal - it is 66 books, You are correct poetry, apocolyptic literature, songs, apostolic letters and proverbs are not literal. however the historical accounts are history. Again read the beginning of luke where he plugs Jesus into human history by referencing events in time.

Luke 1: 5 In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah,

Luke 2: In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. 2 (This was the first census that took place while^{[a] Quirinius was governor of Syria}.) 3 And everyone went to their own town to register.

Luke 23:6 6 On hearing this, Pilate asked if the man was a Galilean. 7 When he learned that Jesus was under Herod’s jurisdiction, he sent him to Herod, who was also in Jerusalem at that time.

I wont even get stuck into the historical accounts of exodus, joshua, judges, numbers, 1 kings, 2 kings, 1 chronicales, 2 chronicles, 1 samuel, 2 samuel, nehemia, and the list goes on.

As for it being translated - you show a lack of understanding of the translation process and purpose. Unless you speak Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek then the bible would not be available to you. Your argument makes you sound like a traditional catholic that wants the bible said in latin to keep the peasants pig ignorant.

Thank God for the people who bled, died and were burned to translate the bible so we can understand it in our own language today. Thank God for the people who live in mud and sewerage (like my friends up the sepak river) who have spent 20 plus years of their lives making it possible for natives to read it in their own language. Thank God for people who spend their lives researching what the originals said so we can understand it as closely as possible to the original meaning so we too can understand it today.

Do you not know that the translations of relatively newly discoverd texts (lie the Dead Sea Scrolls from 1940s) match with a high degree of fidelity the translations that have come to us today via traditional routes like the latin vulgate and others? After almost 2000 years the new discovers match old handed down texts. That is fidelity.

Do you not know that the eastern coptic / arabic speaking churches, that split from western churches in the 400s, have independently translated gospels that correlate very very closely with our eastern english gospels? Do you understand the process of exegesis in order that we may hermenuetically translate the texts - so that we who live in a modern age can still understand the words written 2000 years ago? Or are you parrotting clap trap and nonsense you read in a dan brown novel?

Also why are you so stuck on the idea of me being a Christian. Why are you being so judgy? I wrote plainly, not using Christian arguments or scripture or "God shall smite" statements. , I didn't condemn (which is what I think you mean by judge) but did say what my conviction and thoughts were and why - without putting any one down. Yet you keep accusing and condemning me. Remove the log from your own eye before looking for a piece of dust in mine.

As for being an anarchist by desire - it is my hope we will one day be capable of regulating ourselves, choosing how to act driven by love and able to act in love freely from being told what to do by law. However as I wrote, by desire - as I know the human race in incapable of self regulation as a group and needs law and order imposed to maintain some semblance of reasonable society. We are still children requiring discipline and our parent, the state provides that by enforcing the agreed will of the people - or if it doesn't then gets changed.

and where did i write about the separation of church and state? Stop making up words and putting them in my mouth. Read what I have written and treat it respectfully - just as I have shown respect to you.

Stop judging me and dialog.

nunz

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#1999189 19-Apr-2018 10:51

Here is why I hate prostitution.

I lived in India for 4 months, working in the slum areas and being with a group called YWAM. As part of that we looked to get a project started offering Night shelter to children for the women of falkland road, mumbai. We wanted to offer a service to the prostitutes where their kids could come and sleep in a safe place, rather than be drugged and stay under the beds while their mothers worked. Did i say beds? I mean bunks with women working both layers. We also wanted to offer education and health support. there were many skinny women - HIV infections ran at about 56000 per year from memory - and that was Mumbai alone.

In falkland road the Nepalese women were sold as kids or kidnapped and forced to work. They had no rights, no home and no bed of their own. Their children, as young as 5 were on the streets at 2pm in the afternoon (quiet time) touting for work to make money to buy food. TB in those areas ran as high as 95% tested positive to the antibodies and possibly 50% having them. Life expectancy as less than 40 years. Their hospitality to myself and people in my group was amazing. We were offered chai and food - and they had almost none of their own.

This is the picture of prostitution that is true of most of the world. Sydney's Kings Cross is tame, clean and a positive paradise compared to most of what goes on in the rest of the world.

In the west prostitution is seen as cleaner , kinder, safer. But in the end it is the same lust and desire to use someone for a mans own pleasure that drives both NZ prostitution and over sea prostitution. The end result is the same, money and a desire to get off. The degree of control, pain and abuse is different but it is all from the same root.

I'll never forget the little 5 year old who propositioned me when I got off the bus at Falkland road. I wont forget the prematurely old woman laying on the street dying of aids with no hospital, medicine or medical help. I'll remember the crowds of men, so thick at even 2pm looking for someone to fulfill THEIR desires on with no consideration for the other person. I will never ever be the same person I was before I entered falkland road - I'm broken and haunted by what i experienced.

NZ prostitution is no different - it is just a matter of degree.

Click to see full size This is the nice part of the road - note the kids in bottom right of picture. - More touristy than where iwas

Click to see full size Typical working area - cleaner than some

- this is where kids sleep at night

deadlyllama

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#1999190 19-Apr-2018 10:53

Small interjection from someone with a theology degree...

Jesus had a lot of time for what "good Jews" would have considered "bad people." He would eat dinner with tax collectors (agents of the occupying power who were hated by their fellow Jews), prostitutes, and other undesirables. The ultra-righteous Jewish leaders complained about this quite a lot.

I see the bible's moral instructions as being for people who choose to follow them. Part of my role as a minister is to call people to follow them cohesively, to not just do what they vaguely remember from Sunday School, to not just pick a few they like and ignore the more difficult bits. All Christians have serious failings in this area, myself included, but we're called to strive to do better.

If you don't consider yourself a Christian, don't consider yourself bound by any Christian moral code. I'm not interested in law without faith. If I was I'd be Graham Capill and we know how that turns out.

On a political/societal level, leaving the religious stuff aside, I don't think that prostitution is good for anyone involved. I think it is something that strips dignity away from all parties; that turns something that should be beautiful into a commercial transaction; that it turns people into sex objects, people who are less than fully human. Some people may, completely freely, choose to put themselves in that position. I don't think that's good for them. We as a society try to steer people away from activities that involve harming themselves. I'd challenge people on this thread to agree that drug abuse was OK, that suicide was good for anyone involved, that smoking cigarettes was awesome, ...

I don't see legalisation as an endorsement of prostitution as a profession; I see it as harm reduction. The risk with legalising an activity for the purpose of harm reduction is that this is seen as an endorsement of that activity. My understanding is that selling sex was illegal but buying it was not, and that this would make a bad situation worse. You can't go to the cops if a client beats you up because you were engaging in illegal activities to begin with; this distorts an already pretty bad power relationship, and makes vulnerable people even more vulnerable.

Rikkitic

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#1999229 19-Apr-2018 11:45

I am trying to avoid getting further entangled in this but it is difficult. I admire the passion and conviction (and knowledge) of @nunz. I disagree with some of what he says, but it is impossible to ignore or disregard. He makes a strong case for what he believes. It deserves respect.

And now we have @deadlyllama. Also someone with strong beliefs that deserve respect. Again, I don't agree with everything. I am not religious. I would even have to say I am actively against the kind of christianity espoused by American televangelists and their ilk. This is not to say I disparage faith.

I do not consider myself a christian by any definition but I do consider myself bound by certain moral codes, most of which are also espoused by christians. I do not think one has to believe in a particular notion of god in order to want to do the right thing. I do not believe it is hard to know what the right thing is. You don't need god to have a conscience.

The biggest problem I have with believers is their apparent need to force others to live by their beliefs. One such issue has been gay marriage. Some christians think it is wrong and that is fair enough. No-one says they have to do it. But because they don't believe in it, they seem to think that entitles them to prevent others from doing it. A current issue is euthanasia. Christians don't like it so they don't want others to be able to make use of it. I wish christians would stay in their own backyard. They can believe what they like and live according to that. They don't need to force others to do the same. Abortion is another such issue. There are many.

My non-christian morals tell me that exploitation of defenseless human beings is evil and I am strongly against it. But I am also against prohibiting the activities of freely consenting adults under the guise of doing what is best for others whether they want it or not.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

nunz

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#1999239 19-Apr-2018 12:18

Rikkitic:

I am trying to avoid getting further entangled in this but it is difficult. I admire the passion and conviction (and knowledge) of @nunz. I disagree with some of what he says, but it is impossible to ignore or disregard. He makes a strong case for what he believes. It deserves respect.

And now we have @deadlyllama. Also someone with strong beliefs that deserve respect. Again, I don't agree with everything. I am not religious. I would even have to say I am actively against the kind of christianity espoused by American televangelists and their ilk. This is not to say I disparage faith.

I do not consider myself a christian by any definition but I do consider myself bound by certain moral codes, most of which are also espoused by christians. I do not think one has to believe in a particular notion of god in order to want to do the right thing. I do not believe it is hard to know what the right thing is. You don't need god to have a conscience.

The biggest problem I have with believers is their apparent need to force others to live by their beliefs. One such issue has been gay marriage. Some christians think it is wrong and that is fair enough. No-one says they have to do it. But because they don't believe in it, they seem to think that entitles them to prevent others from doing it. A current issue is euthanasia. Christians don't like it so they don't want others to be able to make use of it. I wish christians would stay in their own backyard. They can believe what they like and live according to that. They don't need to force others to do the same. Abortion is another such issue. There are many.

My non-christian morals tell me that exploitation of defenseless human beings is evil and I am strongly against it. But I am also against prohibiting the activities of freely consenting adults under the guise of doing what is best for others whether they want it or not.

@rikkitic Thanks again.

I'ld agree with you on the American Jesus thing (Great song of that name by Bad Religion - warning it may contain profanity)

Rikkitic:

> I do not consider myself a christian by any definition but I do consider myself bound by certain moral codes, most of which are also espoused by christians. I do not think one has to believe in a particular notion of god in order to want to do the right thing. I do not believe it is hard to know what the right thing is. You don't need god to have a conscience.

The Bible would agree with you. One of the main parts of the story of creation found in Gen 1 / 2 is that Eve ate from the Tree Of The knowledge Of Good and Evil. It doesn't matter whether you see that as an allegory or literal story - the truth stays the same for this fact. All humans have the knowledge of good and evil, or as Paul puts it - our consciences bearing witness.

Christians that claim they, and only they, have a handle on right and wrong are confusing that for where Jesus says "I am the way, the truth and the life ...- I am the only way to the Father". Jesus there is talking about Him being the only pathway to God. He is not saying only he has all universal truth (examples include maths, philosophy, morality, what's in my left pocket) . Again Paul says what can be known about God is evident from creation around us - so all humans have some knowledge of God / the divine / eternity.

While you may not need to be religious to have a conscience, I would say it is a spark put in you as a free gift from God, whether you have a relationship with Him or not. It is a spark of the divine, again going back to Gen 1 / 2 - where God said, let us make humans in our image and breathed life into him. I know that may not be your belief, but all I am saying is that the Bible agrees with you - you don't have to be Christian or even religious in order to know right from wrong.

kingdragonfly

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#1999275 19-Apr-2018 12:46

Very nicely written @deadlyllama.

I like your statement of "Jesus had a lot of time for what "good Jews" would have considered 'bad people.'"

A nice summary.

deadlyllama

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#1999313 19-Apr-2018 13:39

Rikkitic:

My non-christian morals tell me that exploitation of defenseless human beings is evil and I am strongly against it. But I am also against prohibiting the activities of freely consenting adults under the guise of doing what is best for others whether they want it or not.

I think the fundamental problem we have is (at least) two frames of reference in this thread.

One is the "what I think is OK is OK" based on whatever logic/feelings/research/rights-based language. That's your public arena argument, which is easy for anyone to engage with if they want to and aren't too squeamish about.

The other is the "this is what some people interpret the bible as" side which the Christians in the thread are on. This style of argument isn't really compatible with the other because if you don't care about what the bible says then you're not going to engage with it at all. Just like you're not going to win me over by quoting the Koran...

I get this, which is why I split my post up into two sections. I'm fully aware that making a theological argument in the context of Geekzone is putting myself on a hiding to nowhere. I do have a theological argument for what I believe -- I'm not someone who can check their brain in at the door and just parrot what I hear.

But I also have a power and rights-based argument, and that is as appropriate for this forum as the existence of this thread is. So that's what I'd employ here. I'd remind other posters to check their privilege -- most Geekzoners are going to be male and well off (you work in IT!). Most prostitutes are female and not well off. Using your money which is economic power, to gain control over someone so that they will do things with you which otherwise they wouldn't (otherwise why are they asking for cash) sounds pretty bad to me. Mind you, we all do it when we buy cheap clothes made in sweatshops, that's just less personally invasive.

Of course it turns out that you can tie that into Christian theology pretty neatly -- we're all made in the image of God and when we treat others as not fully human we're disrespecting that image and disrespecting God himself.

Is there anything that freely consenting (mental illness, poverty and power imbalances open a whole can of worms right there) adults shouldn't be allowed to do? Is Euthanasia in cases of depression OK? Should I be able to pay someone who has no better option, less than minimum wage to drive me around town (hello, Uber)? If I want a role in a movie, and the only way to get it is to sleep with Harvey Weinstein, and therefore I do so, is that free consent? If I need to pay the bills, and I can't get a job at the supermarket, but I get one in a brothel, is that free consent?

I'm not trying to be a dick but "freely consenting" is itself hard to define and is definitely not the same as "willing and of sound mind and judgement," and "what two people do in private" can be a pretty big category.

kingdragonfly

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#1999441 19-Apr-2018 18:00

I suspect at this point in the thread, most people are reading their own posts rather than others, as everyone already made their positions clear.

Except for a lucky few who love every aspect of work, I must admit we all do unpleasant things for money.

We also rarely freely consent. For example, when Facebook asked for our consent before using their software, how many, if any, knew what they were consenting to?

Evolution has made sex pleasurable. It's an expensive and potentially dangerous activity for any species. So biology gives us instant gratification to encourage all living things to have sex.

Every species performs myriad kinds of sex, even including a NZ bi-sexual goose in a love triangle, snake orgies, and male dolphins in large homosexual groups.

Sex is fun and natural.

It's unfortunate sex is so heavily stigmatize, outside a narrow range of options.

I consider prostitutes as brothers-in-arms. Every time I suffer at work the slings and arrows of employment rather than take arms against the sea of troubles, I feel a kindred spirit to the often maligned prostitute.

If someone can get a well-paid job, with every adult consenting, privately, safely, with the provider having little education, with incredibly flexible hours, and taking care of their family without toiling for 40 to 80 hours a week, I say more power to them.

It's a pity than most religion's leaders pit themselves against the usually powerless prostitute.

I admire Jesus for hanging out with society's rejects, including harlots, and not being judgemental.

JimmyH

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#2000355 21-Apr-2018 17:03

OK, maybe one last post on this, then I am out.

nunz:

Here is why I hate prostitution [.....]

Kudos to you, and I mean that sincerely. It was a tremendous thing you did going over there to try and make a difference like you did.

However, what you saw in India is not an example that has much (if any) direct relevance to this discussion.

In a NZ context it's simply not a useful example. No one is advocating 5 year olds being able to prostitute themselves, or drugged children being kept under the bed while their mum works. Most of us, myself included, would find that repugnant. And in NZ we would, rightly, bring the full weight of the law and child protection services to bear if anyone did this.

What people are talking about here is consenting adults deciding of their own free will, who they have sex with. That includes whether there is consideration exchanged for that - be it money, dinner or a few drinks. It's not even about whether it's a good thing (in my view that's up to the people concerned and no one else). It's about whether it should be illegal, with anyone engaging in that type of activity pursued by the courts, dragged through the courts, and fined or imprisoned.

Your example is akin to saying that in [insert random third world country] 12 year olds regularly work in steel mills that are unregulated, and have no safety equipment. Because of this, they are regularly maimed and killed, and I have seen starving 13 year olds who were maimed in steel mills begging on the streets. Therefore steel mills are terrible, and we shouldn't have them in NZ. And anyone trying to make steel should be prosecuted. Notwithstanding the fact that in NZ you have to be over 18 to work in a steel mill, you can't be forced to work there, safety is regulated and safety equipment provided, and there is medical care.

I suspect that you aren't going to win this debate without something better than emotive, but essentially irrelevant, straw-man arguments.

I remain of the view that as an adult matters such as who I sleep with providing both parties are adults who freely consent, what food I choose to eat, and whether (and by what name) I believe in God, are essentially private ones. Not something that the State and law enforcement should impose on me.

MikeAqua

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#2000942 23-Apr-2018 11:13

deadlyllama:

Using your money which is economic power, to gain control over someone so that they will do things with you which otherwise they wouldn't (otherwise why are they asking for cash) sounds pretty bad to me.

This is what employers do everyday. If I wasn't being paid I'd be fishing.

The difference with prostitution is that sex is involved. Many religions make sex wrong - unless of course you submit to a religious ceremony to validate your relationship (and a donation to the church coffers wouldn't hurt either).

When society took this message seriously, almost everyone got married and in many cases marriage was a form of prostitution - although eventually without the sex.

Mike

nunz

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#2003441 27-Apr-2018 12:17

kingdragonfly: I suspect at this point in the thread, most people are reading their own posts rather than others, as everyone already made their positions clear.

Except for a lucky few who love every aspect of work, I must admit we all do unpleasant things for money.
...

It's a pity than most religion's leaders pit themselves against the usually powerless prostitute.

I admire Jesus for hanging out with society's rejects, including harlots, and not being judgemental.

I don't expect to win any argument here. I write to offer an alternative view that people can consent to or not (see my pun <grin>). The reason I write is Jesus calls us to be salt and light, to make a difference in our world.

As for judgement - you seem to feel Christians are judgy. Honestly, its too often true. Some of the things Christians do make me wince. Heck some of the things I do make me wince.

However - the areas you quote on judgement are Jesus talking about hypocritical condemnation of others - not about wisely deciding between right and wrong.

The story of the woman caught in adultery - you are wrong in saying Jesus didn't judge her. He did but he didn't condemn her. The story ends with "

Jesus - “Where are your accusers? Didn’t even one of them condemn you?”

women - “No, Lord,” she said.

And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”

Jesus calls her out for her sin, but rather than condemning her says, You have done wrong - now go and do better.

The story of judge not least you be judged is again about condemnation and hypocrisy, not about making judgement calls.

“Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye..

Jesus says - you will see clearly to take the spec out of your brothers eye. At some point you will make a decision about right and wrong. You will judge what is good and bad. But you will not condemn.

He is clearly telling us to judge ourselves, sort our act out (ongoing tense) and then we will be able to ( compassionately) help our brother / sister. when we see a weakness in ourselves, we tend to act with compassion towards others who are in the same boat. Jesus calls us to take action compassionately -

The issue is one of hypocrisy - which when combined with judgement we tend to call condemnation.

Jesus never said not to choose what is right or wrong, he never said to not make judgments - but he is quick to speak on how we deal with others using the knowledge we have.

I think the epitome of these teachings is Luke 6: 27-45 if take a big over view of those verses we see an argument built:

firstly - make a decision on how to act

LOVE (27-36) - love everyone - even your enemies - To the point of giving and lending to them without expecting to get stuff back. Love like God loves. Jesus in effect says work hardest at what is hardest to do -

Then Act a result of love (with a warning)

JUDGE NOT (37-42) - This builds on LOVE. It teaches introspection and when we recognise others faults in ourselves we will be compassionate and loving to others.

secondly - make a decision on how you will act

DECIDE - (43/44) - this is a bridging verse. it completes the above by asking "what are you like?" "What will you do and be?".

Then act - (with a warning)

OBEY / DO - If you claim to follow Jesus you will obey what is above and in doing so have a strong foundation to build your life on. But be warned - not following these words brings calamity.

Jesus teaching is riddled with teachings telling us to make judgements and riddled with not condemning. He teaches to first see what God does, then examine ourselves, then act on ourselves then act on others.

in our English language we often use the same word for different things. e.g

Love - I love ice cream, I love my wife, I love my brothers and sister, I desire to make love.

I suspect judge is the same. Perhaps using the word decide (which isn't as active as the word judge) and words like condemn should be used. Connotations about people condemning others (judging others) get tied up with the idea of judge (decide between and act on that).

Jesus does call us to decide. He also calls us to be a light - that we don't hide away. Out of love we are compelled to speak what we believe are words of life and light, rather than withhold them. Unfortunately it can often come across as, or actually be, condemning. If you feel I have done that then I apologise. It was never my intention.

My argument against prostitution is not to put them down - rather for the purpose of harm reduction for both them, the clients, and the people around the clients (family. spouses etc).

As a Christian I believe what the bible says about sin and take my stand with the Bible. However the bible also calls us to love and gives us massive examples of mercy and compassion triumphing over straight up judgement. The tension is finding the balance between:

1 - Acting Biblically/ morally -

2 - Being compassionate

3 - Standing for nothing / letting everything sin be okay (which is not loving but a laissez-faire abrogation of responsibility)

For these reason we Christians tend to speak.

nunz

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#2003446 27-Apr-2018 12:28

JimmyH:

OK, maybe one last post on this, then I am out.

nunz:

Here is why I hate prostitution [.....]

Kudos to you, and I mean that sincerely. It was a tremendous thing you did going over there to try and make a difference like you did.

However, what you saw in India is not an example that has much (if any) direct relevance to this discussion.

Thank you.

As you know I disagree with this idea of relevance - it's all a matter of degree

The same lust, power imbalance and reasons that drive women into prostitution in other parts of the world drive prostitution here in NZ (yes we have some slavery / no - agreed it is not as much of a factor in NZ)

If the drivers for prostitution in the third world are wrong there then those same drivers are wrong here. Just because there is less harm (in the short term) in NZ, doesn't suddenly make those drivers okay. It just lets us live a little more comfortably with them.

What we have in Nz is a baby snake whose fangs are not long enough to kill, just hurt a little. In the 3rd world it is a full grown King Cobra. - but at the end of the day they are both snakes and don't belong in NZ (in an ideal world).

Here is my end word: Would you want your wife, daughter, mother involved in prostitution? If not why not? After all it is consenting and makes money? Or is there more than just that at stake?

kingdragonfly

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#2003520 27-Apr-2018 14:03

nunz: For these reason we Christians tend to speak

I didn't realize your view reflects all Christian denominations:

African Church of the Holy Spirit, African initiated Protestant churches, African Israel Church Nineveh, African Methodist Episcopal Church, African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church, Albanian Greek Catholic Church, Albanian Orthodox Church, American Baptist Churches USA, Amish, Anabaptism, Ancient Church of the East, Anglican Church in Aotearoa, New Zealand and Polynesia, Anglican Church in North America, Anglican Church of Australia, Anglican Church of Burundi, Anglican Church of Canada, Anglican Church of Kenya, Anglican Church of Melanesia, Anglican Church of Rwanda, Anglican Church of Southern Africa, Anglican Church of Tanzania, Anglicanism, Antiochene Rite Maronite Catholic Church, Apostolic Catholic Church, Apostolic Church, Apostolic Faith Mission of South Africa, Armenian Apostolic Church, Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople, Armenian Patriarchate of Jerusalem, Armenian Rite Armenian Catholic Church, Association of Pentecostal Churches of Rwanda, Association of Vineyard Churches, Autocephalous churches, Autonomous churches, Autonomous churches - 1 millionFrench Coptic Orthodox Church, Baptist Bible Fellowship International, Baptist Community in Central Africa, Baptist Community of the Congo River, Baptist Community of Western Congo, Baptist Convention of Kenya, Baptist Convention of Malawi, Baptist Convention of Tanzania, Baptist General Association of Virginia, Baptist General Convention of Texas, Baptist Union of Uganda, Batak Christian Protestant Church, Belarusian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, Belarusian Greek Catholic Church, Blue Army of Our Lady of Fátima, Born Again Movement, Brazilian Baptist Convention, Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church, British Orthodox Church, Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church, Bulgarian Orthodox Church, Byzantine Catholic Church of Croatia and Serbia, Byzantine Rite Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, Calvinism (Reformed churches), Canonically irregular groupsSociety of Saint Pius X, Catholic Charismatic Renewal, Catholic Church, Central Sulawesi Christian Church, Chaldean Catholic Church, Chaldean Rite Syro-Malabar Catholic Church, Chinese Orthodox Church, Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association, Chinese-originated and Chinese Independent Churches, Christadelphians, Christian and Missionary Alliance, Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), Christian Church of Sumba, Christian churches and churches of Christ, Christian Congregation of Brazil, Christian Evangelical Church in Minahasa, Christian Evangelical Church in Timor, Christian Evangelical Church of Sangihe Talaud, Christian Methodist Episcopal Church, Christian Protestant Church in Indonesia, Christian Reformed Church in North America, Christian Reformed Church of Nigeria, Christianity, Church in the Province of the West Indies, Church of Central Africa Presbyterian, Church of Christ in Congo–Anglican Community of Congo, Church of Christ in Congo–Baptist Community of Congo, Church of Christ in Congo–Presbyterian Community of Congo, Church of Christ in the Sudan Among the Tiv, Church of Christ Light of the Holy Spirit, Church of Christ, Scientist, Church of Cyprus, Church of Denmark, Church of God (Anderson, Indiana), Church of God of Prophecy, Church of Greece, Church of Iceland, Church of Ireland, Church of Lippe, Church of Nigeria, Church of North India, Church of Norway, Church of Pakistan, Church of Scotland, Church of South India, Church of Sweden, Church of the East (Nestorianism), Church of the Lord (Aladura), Church of the Nazarene, Church of the Province of Central Africa, Church of the Province of the Indian Ocean, Church of the Province of West Africa, Church of Uganda, Churches not in communion, Community of Christ, Community of Disciples of Christ in Congo, Community of Sant'Egidio, Congregationalism, Conservative Baptist Association of America, Continental Reformed churches, Continuing Anglican movement and independent churches, Convention of Philippine Baptist Churches, Convention of Visayas and Mindanao of Southern Baptist Churches, Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, Coptic Catholic Church, Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, Council of African Instituted Churches, Council of Baptist Churches in Northeast India, Cursillo, Czech and Slovak Orthodox Church, Czechoslovak Hussite Church, Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa (NGK), Eastern Catholic Churches, Eastern Lightning, Eastern Orthodox Church, Episcopal Church in the United States, Episcopal Church of South Sudan and Sudan, Eritrean Catholic Church, Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church, Estonian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate), Eternal Sacred Order of Cherubim and Seraphim, Ethiopian Evangelical Church Mekane Yesus, Evangelical Christian Church in Halmahera, Evangelical Christian Church in Tanah Papua, Evangelical Church of Cameroon, Evangelical Church of Congo, Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in Austria, Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in Slovakia, Evangelical Church of the Lutheran Confession in Brazil, Evangelical Congregational Church in Angola, Evangelical Free Church of America, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Evangelical Lutheran Church in Namibia, Evangelical Lutheran Church in Southern Africa, Evangelical Lutheran Church in Tanzania, Evangelical Lutheran Church in the Republic of Namibia, Evangelical Lutheran Church in Zimbabwe, Evangelical Lutheran Church of Brazil, Evangelical Lutheran Church of Cameroon, Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvia, Evangelical Lutheran Church of Papua New Guinea, Evangelical Orthodox Church, Evangelical Presbyterian Church, Ghana, Evangelical Reformed Church in Angola, Evangelical Reformed Church in Bavaria and Northwestern Germany, Evangelical-Lutheran Church in Hungary, Family International, Fangcheng Fellowship, Finnish Orthodox Church, Focolare Movement, Free Methodist Church, Friends of Man, Garo Baptist Convention, Georgian Byzantine Catholic Church, Georgian Orthodox Church, Ghana Baptist Convention, God is Love Pentecostal Church, Greek Byzantine Catholic Church, Greek Old Calendarists, Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria, Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch, Greek Orthodox Church of Constantinople, Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem, Historical Protestantism, Holy See of Cilicia, Hungarian Greek Catholic Church, Hussites, Hutterites, Independent Catholicism, Indonesia Christian Church, International Catholic Conference of Scouting, International Circle of Faith, International Pentecostal Holiness Church, Italo-Albanian Catholic Church, Japanese Orthodox Church, Javanese Christian Church, Jehovah's Witnesses, Jesus Is Lord Church Worldwide, Kalimantan Evangelical Church, Karo Batak Protestant Church, Kimbanguist Church, Korea Baptist Convention, Korean Methodist Church, Korean Presbyterian Church, Latin Church, Latter Day Saint movement (Mormonism), Latvian Orthodox Church, Legion of Mary (active and auxiliary), Lesotho Evangelical Church, Lott Carey Foreign Mission Convention, Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod, Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ, Lutheranism, Macedonian Greek Catholic Church, Macedonian Orthodox Church, Malabar Independent Syrian Church, Malagasy Lutheran Church, Manipur Baptist Convention, Marian Movement of Priests, Melkite Greek Catholic Church, Messianic Judaism, Methodism, Methodist Church Ghana, Methodist Church in Brazil, Methodist Church in India, Methodist Church in Kenya, Methodist Church Nigeria, Methodist Church of Great Britain, Methodist Church of Southern Africa, Metropolitan Church of Bessarabia, Militia Immaculatae, Minor branches, Minor denominations, Modern Protestantism, Moldovan Orthodox Church, Montenegrin Orthodox Church, Myanmar Baptist Convention, Nagaland Baptist Church Council, National Association of Free Will Baptists, National Baptist Convention (Brazil), National Baptist Convention of America, Inc., National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc., National Missionary Baptist Convention of America, National Presbyterian Church in Mexico, National Primitive Baptist Convention of the U.S.A., Neocatechumenal Way, New Apostolic Church, Nigerian Baptist Convention, Non-universally recognized churches, Nondenominational evangelicalism, Old Believers, Old Calendar Bulgarian Orthodox Church, Old Calendarist Romanian Orthodox Church, Old Catholic Church, Opus Dei, Oriental Orthodoxy, Orissa Evangelical Baptist Crusade, Orthodox Church in America, Orthodox Church in Italy, Orthodox Church of Greece (Holy Synod in Resistance), Orthodox Ohrid Archbishopric, Other separated Orthodox groups, Our Lady's Rosary Makers, Palmarian Catholic Church, Pentecostal Assemblies of the World, Personal Ordinariate for former Anglicans, Philippine Independent Church, Plymouth Brethren, Polish National Catholic Church, Polish Orthodox Church, Presbyterian Church (USA), Presbyterian Church in America, Presbyterian Church in Cameroon, Presbyterian Church in Ireland, Presbyterian Church in Korea (BaekSeok), Presbyterian Church in Korea (HapDong), Presbyterian Church in Korea (HapDongBoSu II.), Presbyterian Church in Korea (Koshin), Presbyterian Church in Rwanda, Presbyterian Church in Sudan, Presbyterian Church in Taiwan, Presbyterian Church of Africa, Presbyterian Church of Brazil, Presbyterian Church of Cameroon, Presbyterian Church of India, Presbyterian Church of Korea (TongHap), Presbyterian Church of Nigeria, Presbyterian Church of Pakistan, Progressive National Baptist Convention, Protestant Church in Indonesia, Protestant Church in the Netherlands, Protestant Church in Western Indonesia, Protestant Church of Augsburg Confession of Alsace and Lorraine, Protestant Church of Maluku, Protestantism, Quakers (Religious Society of Friends), Redeemed Christian Church of God, Reformed Church in America, Reformed Church in Hungary, Reformed Church in Romania, Reformed Church in Zambia, Reformed Church of France, Reformed Evangelical Anglican Church of South Africa, Regnum Christi, Restoration Movement, Restorationism and Nontrinitarianism, Romanian Greek Catholic Church, Romanian Orthodox Church, Russian Greek Catholic Church, Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church, Samavesam of Telugu Baptist Churches, Schwarzenau Brethren/German Baptists, Secular Franciscan Order, Serbian Orthodox Church, Seventh-day Adventist Church, Simalungun Protestant Christian Church, Slovak Greek Catholic Church, Society of Saint Vincent de Paul, Swiss Reformed Church, Syriac Catholic Church, Syriac Orthodox Church, Syro-Malankara Catholic Church, The Church of Pentecost, The Indonesian Christian Church, The Lutheran Church of Christ in Nigeria, The Pentecostal Mission, The Protestant Christian Church, The Salvation Army, Toraja Church, Traditionalist Mexican-American Catholic Church, True Jesus Church, True Orthodox Church, Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, Union of Baptist Churches in Rwanda, Unitarian Universalism, United Church in Papua New Guinea and the Solomon Islands, United Church in Zambia, United Church of Canada, United Church of Christ in the Philippines, United Congregational Church of Southern Africa, United Evangelical Lutheran Churches in India, United Methodist Church of Ivory Coast, United Pentecostal Church International, Uniting Church in Australia, Uniting Presbyterian Church in Southern Africa, Uniting Reformed Church in Southern Africa, Unity of the Brethren, Universal Church of the Kingdom of God, Wesleyan Church, Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, Worldwide Marriage Encounter

It must be a divine miracle that the law got passed? ;)

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