Time to give electricity the flick?

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#1847373 16-Aug-2017 08:53

Kraven:

The Electricity Authority has published the switching stats for July, looks like Flick has taken a bit of a hit with a net loss of 2,173 ICP's (or about 9%).

https://www.emi.ea.govt.nz/

(information can be found under Reports)

With a corresponding increase over the same point for Electric Kiwi of 3782 (34%).

It would be interesting to see the breakdown on where people have moved from, but I think it's a fair guess that a decent number of those leaving Flick may have ended up at Electric Kiwi.

tdgeek

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#1847378 16-Aug-2017 09:01

jonathan18:

Kraven:

The Electricity Authority has published the switching stats for July, looks like Flick has taken a bit of a hit with a net loss of 2,173 ICP's (or about 9%).

https://www.emi.ea.govt.nz/

(information can be found under Reports)

With a corresponding increase over the same point for Electric Kiwi of 3782 (34%).

It would be interesting to see the breakdown on where people have moved from, but I think it's a fair guess that a decent number of those leaving Flick may have ended up at Electric Kiwi.

As per the threads here that is very clear, and that they will mainly move back. Some may stay at EK as they are over the spot management, although you do need to manage EK re the free hour as well, but thats a lot easier

timmmay

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#1847391 16-Aug-2017 09:26

EK is lower stress / risk, and with their free hour you can get good value. It's difficult to work it out because of the floating rates, but I suspect the EK bill isn't much more than Flick would be. I'm also a bit tired of watching prices and optimising power use on Flick, though that's not really required.

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#1847400 16-Aug-2017 09:55

timmmay:

EK is lower stress / risk, and with their free hour you can get good value. It's difficult to work it out because of the floating rates, but I suspect the EK bill isn't much more than Flick would be. I'm also a bit tired of watching prices and optimising power use on Flick, though that's not really required.

Me, ChCh EX GST

EK Daily 73c 20c / kWh

FL Daily 91.66c 12.39c + spot at about 7c = 20c peak

4.74c + spot at about 7c = 12c offpeak

Peak is the same, off peak is about 40% cheaper, daily is up a bit but only $7 a month. Add the free hour and you can drop EK by 10 to 20%

Not a lot in it.

timmmay

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#1847407 16-Aug-2017 10:08

tdgeek:

Me, ChCh EX GST

EK Daily 73c       20c / kWh

FL Daily 91.66c   12.39c + spot at about 7c = 20c peak

                         4.74c + spot at about 7c = 12c offpeak

Peak is the same, off peak is about 40% cheaper, daily is up a bit but only $7 a month. Add the free hour and you can drop EK by 10 to 20%

Not a lot in it.

Agree, it's pretty close. EK is slightly lower risk as there are no spikes. I average around 20% free hour savings.

For the last two weeks my EK bill is $127.33. Based on my usage stats my use is approx 35% off peak, which gives an average rate of let's say 17c. On Flick my bill would've been around $133. So with good use of the free hour EK can be cheaper than Flick. In summer I don't think I could maintain those savings, because my free hour of power runs hot water, two heat pumps, plus a couple of appliances that use less power.

miked

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#1847410 16-Aug-2017 10:25

The main reason I have stayed with Flick, is that their pricing model encourages me to shift my usage to cheaper times, which due to the way the spot prices are formed, is also nearly always neatly aligned with environmental costs too. So there is a financial incentive to shift usage to lower CO2 producing times where possible. It is nice that Choice app also gives this data. Since moving to Flick I had saved just over $600. Now since the winter (of discontent), that has dropped to $545 and will drop further over the next few weeks, but in the long term I'm definitely winning (and these savings are compared to a plan that Power Switch said no-one could beat).

I definitely could have kept my savings intact by jumping to Electric Kiwi for the winter, and I definitely could be milking their free hour for all it is worth! However, I know that would encourage me towards wasteful greedy usage. In the same way that I always eat more than I should at an "all-you-can-eat buffet", because I want to get my money's worth... that is just human nature! There is definitely an argument for some people being better off on Electric Kiwi all year round, especially if they can max out their usage in that hour.... a stash of oil filled radiators on full to give a slower release of heat after the hour is finished; Run the aircon for that hour in summer; run the dishwasher, washing machine etc for that hour; and so on. BUT it is a novelty drawcard that has no reference to the underlying pricing or environmental cost. Net result is that a few heavy customers might actually cost Electric Kiwi money because their free usage will be more than the markup on the other 23hours they pay for. This is fine, as long as Electric Kiwi have enough more moderate users to balance it out (otherwise they will have to put the price up.... or put fair-use clause on the free hour) but they probably do have enough users for it to be sustainable. Therefore the "best deal" financially for a consumer is to be one of those heavy users on Electric Kiwi using more than you paid for. The more you use in that hour, the better your "savings". The ideal is just timeshift, so you use free electricity so you don't need it later... but since it is free, you can use it now "in case you need it later",.... or even "I don't need this, but might as well use it anyway because it is free"!.... so you are now using more than you need! If this comes at a big spot price spike, you are fine doesn't affect you. You probably don't even want to know what CO2 production is like, and it doesn't pay you to find out... you don't want an environmental conscience competing with your desire to maximise the free hour. If Electric Kiwi gets big enough, and their users change their usage patterns enough, then more generation capacity is needed for that hour, probably with worse environmental impact. Certainly not all the power used in the free hour was needed, some if it was wasteful excessive usage. Environmentally I don't think that is sustainable or desirable, even if Electric Kiwi do just fine out of it, and the heaviest users have the bargain of the century deal because of it.

Compare that with Flick, if their model really takes off, and we get used to shifting power usage, (maybe down the line with our own automation based on spot price and even better with an eye on predicted price), then instead of needing to turn on more generation capacity (with higher cost and higher CO2 production) at a peak usage moment, we effectively crowd-source the usage down and the price and CO2 with it. You have an incentive to be a part of the solution instead of part of the problem. If we had a worse winter next year, then who knows what I'd decide, but for now, I like what Flick does.

Mike

Caveat: I'm just a consumer and I know I don't fully understand the electricity market, (although I know more than before I was on Flick) so I might have some of the details wrong... and ultimately who really knows how the impacts of these companies would scale if they became a significant percentage of the country such that they affected usage patterns. Interested to hear others' thoughts on this though.

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#1847415 16-Aug-2017 10:29

timmmay:

tdgeek:

Me, ChCh EX GST

EK Daily 73c       20c / kWh

FL Daily 91.66c   12.39c + spot at about 7c = 20c peak

                         4.74c + spot at about 7c = 12c offpeak

Peak is the same, off peak is about 40% cheaper, daily is up a bit but only $7 a month. Add the free hour and you can drop EK by 10 to 20%

Not a lot in it.

Agree, it's pretty close. EK is slightly lower risk as there are no spikes. I average around 20% free hour savings.

For the last two weeks my EK bill is $127.33. Based on my usage stats my use is approx 35% off peak, which gives an average rate of let's say 17c. On Flick my bill would've been around $133. So with good use of the free hour EK can be cheaper than Flick. In summer I don't think I could maintain those savings, because my free hour of power runs hot water, two heat pumps, plus a couple of appliances that use less power.

Ive thought about summer lately. The dishwasher and washing machine are still there for savings. My HW will be 24/7 solar soon so thats out. 2 heatpumps are out too, but the free hour (mine is 9pm to 10pm) is an opportunity to run them on cool to bring the house temp down overnight

tdgeek

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#1847423 16-Aug-2017 10:42

miked:

The main reason I have stayed with Flick, is that their pricing model encourages me to shift my usage to cheaper times,

I think your post is quite a stretch. I agree there will be some idiots turning everything on that they can , "cos I can" This is power, not torrenting

I see EK and Flick being very very similar. Both ballpark customer numbers, small, online only, low staff. Flick gives you hardcore realtime prices, EK smooths that

EK, like Flick, encourages timeshifting. Thats helps me as my costs reduce, its helps the grid as I have moved power from peak to offpeak. It also helps EK as while they forego the 23x per kWh from me, they are also only paying offpeak for my same kWh that they would have had to pay peak prices for.

So, Flick can be cheaper, but EK has the free hour, so not a lot in it

miked

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#1847448 16-Aug-2017 11:15

I process my thinking externally, so these are my un-processed thoughts as they stand right now, not a manifesto I'm pushing on others! I should have made that clearer. I'm interested in the discussion and happy to change my thinking as I find out more.

The thrust of my missive, I guess, was thinking about a scenario where one of the two currently niche companies became a major player, which one of them would be better for the consumer and for environment. My point is that whilst both could be good for the consumer, that Flick might be better for the environment than EK... but I'm happy to concede I don't know actually how either of them would scale. And actually what unforeseen consequences there might be to the generation marketplace.

Thanks for the thoughts.

Mike

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#1847468 16-Aug-2017 11:55

miked:

The main reason I have stayed with Flick, is that their pricing model encourages me to shift my usage to cheaper times, which due to the way the spot prices are formed, is also nearly always neatly aligned with environmental costs too.

I completely agree with everything you have stated. Exactly why I have stayed with Flick through the winter. Flick encourages me to timeshift to off peak use, as well as reducing usage overall. I save money, and the environmental costs are lower.

timmmay

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#1847470 16-Aug-2017 12:00

I still time shift away from peak pricing with EK. The hot water timer turns it off 7am - 9am and 5pm - 9pm, clothes drier and dishwasher aren't run, but I do keep heating turned on. Since the heat has been on for a while already it's probably not that big a draw.

Aredwood

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#1847814 16-Aug-2017 22:56

I fully agree with @miked But to add to that, EK at least helps somewhat by encouraging some usage to be shifted to offpeak times. Also with Flick, Sometimes spot prices fall to virtually 0. When that happens, I go around the house to see what electrical tasks can be done. Mainly run washing machine, dishwasher. Run the spa filter pump. Check the hot water cylinder temps and if neccessary boost it's temp. (cylinder is heated by solar). See if any TIG welding needs to be done.

Also see if any water related tasks need doing, as Im on tank water, therefore using water means Im also using power for my pumps.

When the spot prices are super low, Must run generation such as Wind, Geothermal, run of river Hydro. Are hardly receiving any money despite feeding into the grid. And they can't save their energy sources for later generation when spot prices are higher. So higher demand elasticity (more loads that increase or decrease in relation to spot prices) Is especially good for those renewable generators. And it is also good for the National grid, and local distribution lines. As when demand is low and prices are low, if you increase your own demand. You don't add any extra costs to Transpower or your lines company, But the renewable generators will be thankful for you. As you will be helping to keep their revenues steady. You will also be helping to encourage more Wind, Geothermal, and Run of River Hydro to be built. And of course you will be helping to reduce future CO2 emissions as well as today's CO2 emissions.

As I have previously posted, Lines companies should be charging based on capacity. As that is what their main cost is. That would allow retail per kW/Hr prices to fall to similar levels to wholesale prices. Lots of lines companies do this indirectly by adding large surcharges onto power used during peak times. But those charges are not allowed to be set to reflect true costs. Due to needing to comply with the Low user charging regulations.

Just imagine in exchange for a fixed capacity fee, based on a capacity that you specify. You could get electricity for just 10c per unit fixed rate. Or even lower than that especially during off peak times. With a few simple law changes, that dream could be reality. And it would end the current silly situation where for most people, LPG and Diesel are cheaper per unit than electricity. (Current generation smart meters can be programmed to limit capacity, so no risk of nasty excess capacity fees if you go over your contracted capacity).

timmmay

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#1847857 17-Aug-2017 06:50

Aredwood:

I fully agree with @miked But to add to that, EK at least helps somewhat by encouraging some usage to be shifted to offpeak times. Also with Flick, Sometimes spot prices fall to virtually 0. When that happens, I go around the house to see what electrical tasks can be done. Mainly run washing machine, dishwasher. Run the spa filter pump. Check the hot water cylinder temps and if neccessary boost it's temp. (cylinder is heated by solar). See if any TIG welding needs to be done.

You know what I love about EK? Not having to do any of that. I can, with the free hour, but I don't have to. I use power when I need it. The bill is reasonable.

Aredwood

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#1848767 19-Aug-2017 00:08

I do that because I like doing it, and it saves me money. It's no different to stocking up on non perishable goods from the supermarket, if the supermarket runs a good price for an item that you normally buy.

And it also helps the proper function of the electricity market. Meaning making demand fall if prices go up, and demand go up if prices fall.

Another big factor is that Im on a peak / offpeak pricing plan, which is giving me big savings due to taking advantage of the much cheaper offpeak power. (these savings are extra to the savings from buying from the wholesale market with Flick). AFAIK Flick Electric is the only power company in Auckland to offer that plan. Going from Flick standard user, to Flick Smart user (peak/offpeak) approx doubled my weekly savings % according to the Flick billing system.

Im also going to be getting a small Solar + battery system at some point. Which only needs to be able to store enough power to offset my already low peak time usage. So I can get good savings from solar, with only a small amount of storage.

TonyS071

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#1849344 20-Aug-2017 19:24

I think it would be quite interesting to graph the correlation between the rate of posts in this channel vs the short term average$ of spot price.
I guess that is kinda the theme of the channel isn't it?

Come on, someone needs to chew those numbers...

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