Netflix to crack down on unblockers

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#1471974 15-Jan-2016 14:47

shk292:
So if I open a Netflix account with my UK credit card I'll be able to watch UK content regardless of where I live?

i was just about to say if i use a german CC does that mean i get access to all EU content? ;-p

clearly the easiest way is at account level, but it requires work and money spent on doing it, it also means losing paying subscribers. will it happen? im not sure.

KCut

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#1471975 15-Jan-2016 14:52

I would be really disappointed if I couldn't watch USA Netflix! Would have to start another hobby if it does go maybe start playing WOW again lol. Don't watch "normal" T.V. at all, we really only have Sky for the sport otherwise would of cancelled sky long ago.

lchiu7

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#1471981 15-Jan-2016 15:08

The address verification process was purely speculation on my part. Their actual strategy could range from that to IP address blocking of known IP addresses used by the VPN and Umblock services to other strategies, all of which I suspect the VPN and unblock providers can work around.

It''s not about blocking all - it's about making hard for the masses.

For example a friend recently told me his LG TV has Google's DNS servers hard coded into it for Netflix access and he could not work out with Unotelly why he could watch Netflix on his phone but not on his TV unttil he blocked Google's DNS. Not hard to do but not something your average user would know how to do.

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dclegg

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#1471987 15-Jan-2016 15:20

lchiu7:
For example a friend recently told me his LG TV has Google's DNS servers hard coded into it for Netflix access and he could not work out with Unotelly why he could watch Netflix on his phone but not on his TV unttil he blocked Google's DNS. Not hard to do but not something your average user would know how to do.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is exactly the approach that Netflix end up taking.

vexxxboy

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#1471988 15-Jan-2016 15:20

bit dramatic

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11574314

Common sense is not as common as you think.

ockel

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#1471991 15-Jan-2016 15:22

dclegg:
lchiu7:
For example a friend recently told me his LG TV has Google's DNS servers hard coded into it for Netflix access and he could not work out with Unotelly why he could watch Netflix on his phone but not on his TV unttil he blocked Google's DNS. Not hard to do but not something your average user would know how to do.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is exactly the approach that Netflix end up taking.

Perhaps part of Netflix Everywhere? http://www.engadget.com/2016/01/06/netflix-teams-with-lg-for-prepaid-streaming-worldwide/

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MBSteve

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#1472039 15-Jan-2016 16:10

lchiu7: The address verification process was purely speculation on my part. Their actual strategy could range from that to IP address blocking of known IP addresses used by the VPN and Umblock services to other strategies, all of which I suspect the VPN and unblock providers can work around.

It''s not about blocking all - it's about making hard for the masses.

For example a friend recently told me his LG TV has Google's DNS servers hard coded into it for Netflix access and he could not work out with Unotelly why he could watch Netflix on his phone but not on his TV unttil he blocked Google's DNS. Not hard to do but not something your average user would know how to do.

I agree and believe this is what they'll be doing. It's too much effort to do C/C validation.

They will simply block any IP addresses that steam to more than X (100+ or 1000+) accounts at any given time. I don't think the proxies use more than a handfull of IP addresses to connect to Netflix. This means Netflix has mayby 10 IP addresses used by accounts numbering in the 1000s. This is easy to identify and block.

Would be interesting to see if anyone has done some trace routes to see how the proxies talk to Netflix and whether the IP addresses are rolling/dynamic.

ubergeeknz

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#1472057 15-Jan-2016 16:22

MBSteve:
lchiu7: The address verification process was purely speculation on my part. Their actual strategy could range from that to IP address blocking of known IP addresses used by the VPN and Umblock services to other strategies, all of which I suspect the VPN and unblock providers can work around.

It''s not about blocking all - it's about making hard for the masses.

For example a friend recently told me his LG TV has Google's DNS servers hard coded into it for Netflix access and he could not work out with Unotelly why he could watch Netflix on his phone but not on his TV unttil he blocked Google's DNS. Not hard to do but not something your average user would know how to do.

I agree and believe this is what they'll be doing. It's too much effort to do C/C validation.

They will simply block any IP addresses that steam to more than X (100+ or 1000+) accounts at any given time. I don't think the proxies use more than a handfull of IP addresses to connect to Netflix. This means Netflix has mayby 10 IP addresses used by accounts numbering in the 1000s. This is easy to identify and block.

Would be interesting to see if anyone has done some trace routes to see how the proxies talk to Netflix and whether the IP addresses are rolling/dynamic.

What about ISPs using CGNAT then ... this approach could cause all sort of problems.

spk18

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#1472067 15-Jan-2016 16:30

http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/75935460/netflix-says-it-wants-to-block-proxies-and-vpns-can-it

MBSteve

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#1472076 15-Jan-2016 16:38

ubergeeknz:
MBSteve:
lchiu7: The address verification process was purely speculation on my part. Their actual strategy could range from that to IP address blocking of known IP addresses used by the VPN and Umblock services to other strategies, all of which I suspect the VPN and unblock providers can work around.

It''s not about blocking all - it's about making hard for the masses.

For example a friend recently told me his LG TV has Google's DNS servers hard coded into it for Netflix access and he could not work out with Unotelly why he could watch Netflix on his phone but not on his TV unttil he blocked Google's DNS. Not hard to do but not something your average user would know how to do.

I agree and believe this is what they'll be doing. It's too much effort to do C/C validation.

They will simply block any IP addresses that steam to more than X (100+ or 1000+) accounts at any given time. I don't think the proxies use more than a handfull of IP addresses to connect to Netflix. This means Netflix has mayby 10 IP addresses used by accounts numbering in the 1000s. This is easy to identify and block.

Would be interesting to see if anyone has done some trace routes to see how the proxies talk to Netflix and whether the IP addresses are rolling/dynamic.

What about ISPs using CGNAT then ... this approach could cause all sort of problems.

Agreed. My (limited - thanks wikipedia) knowledge of CGNAT is that it is mainly used on mobile ISPs and would prevent it's customers from port forwarding, so I don't know how commonly it is used on fixed line ISPs in NZ. But I guess it doesn't really matter how much it's used as even one false negative would mean the entire ISP customer base caught in the same web.

*** Just thinking out loud ****
I don't really want to go off topic, but would CGNAT be used on a localised customer set, aka for a given telco exchange (or arbitrary range of customers) of an ISP, or would the ISP simply dump all their customers behind the same CGNAT setup, sharing the same IP. It just seems that there would be wider implications if this was very widely used.

(edit: spelling)

Aaroona

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#1472134 15-Jan-2016 18:11

MBSteve:
ubergeeknz:
MBSteve:
lchiu7: The address verification process was purely speculation on my part. Their actual strategy could range from that to IP address blocking of known IP addresses used by the VPN and Umblock services to other strategies, all of which I suspect the VPN and unblock providers can work around.

It''s not about blocking all - it's about making hard for the masses.

For example a friend recently told me his LG TV has Google's DNS servers hard coded into it for Netflix access and he could not work out with Unotelly why he could watch Netflix on his phone but not on his TV unttil he blocked Google's DNS. Not hard to do but not something your average user would know how to do.

I agree and believe this is what they'll be doing. It's too much effort to do C/C validation.

They will simply block any IP addresses that steam to more than X (100+ or 1000+) accounts at any given time. I don't think the proxies use more than a handfull of IP addresses to connect to Netflix. This means Netflix has mayby 10 IP addresses used by accounts numbering in the 1000s. This is easy to identify and block.

Would be interesting to see if anyone has done some trace routes to see how the proxies talk to Netflix and whether the IP addresses are rolling/dynamic.

What about ISPs using CGNAT then ... this approach could cause all sort of problems.

Agreed. My (limited - thanks wikipedia) knowledge of CGNAT is that it is mainly used on mobile ISPs and would prevent it's customers from port forwarding, so I don't know how commonly it is used on fixed line ISPs in NZ. But I guess it doesn't really matter how much it's used as even one false negative would mean the entire ISP customer base caught in the same web.

*** Just thinking out loud ****
I don't really want to go off topic, but would CGNAT be used on a localised customer set, aka for a given telco exchange (or arbitrary range of customers) of an ISP, or would the ISP simply dump all their customers behind the same CGNAT setup, sharing the same IP. It just seems that there would be wider implications if this was very widely used.

(edit: spelling)

Not really an answer to your question, however, BigPipe use CGNAT for all their plans by default, unless you pay for a static IP.
I think you'd be surprised about how many ISP's use CGNAT (maybe not so much in NZ) worldwide.

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Oriphix

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#1472293 15-Jan-2016 23:06

I do like the way NetFlix is going though. They are spreading to all the countries and offering there content. (way cheaper then sky that's for sure)
If only they can sort out the licensing and offer the TV shows the same day / week the it releases in the US that would be awesome. I think they are trying to do that.
Once that is done then it will kill piracy as there would be no need to if you can get it and I mean 4 devices for $15 per month that's like $0.50 cents a day easily affordable.

asjohnstone

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#1472332 16-Jan-2016 00:06

They will simply block any IP addresses that steam to more than X (100+ or 1000+) accounts at any given time. I don't think the proxies use more than a handfull of IP addresses to connect to Netflix. This means Netflix has mayby 10 IP addresses used by accounts numbering in the 1000s. This is easy to identify and block.

Would be interesting to see if anyone has done some trace routes to see how the proxies talk to Netflix and whether the IP addresses are rolling/dynamic.

Pretty certain they'll be dynamic and constantly changing. I'm also sure that they'll be perfectly legit IPs with large number of accounts behind them, military bases, universities etc. Knocking these out by accident is bad PR.

Also, I'd be surprised if Netflix actually wants to do this, or cares about it. I recall many years ago Steve Ballmer saying he didn't mind software pirates in China as long they it was his software they pirated. Market share is everything at this stage in the cycle.

For Netflix, out of region sales via unblockers and vpns weakens regional content retailers in smaller markets, like Sky or the legacy advert funded TV station clearing the way for their global homogeny later.

So, flag waving exercise to keep the movie industry happy, but no real results because it's not in their interest to do so.

freitasm

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#1472334 16-Jan-2016 00:17

NonprayingMantis: Could make the argument that it is entirely Netflix fault.

They have signed contracts with content providers where they pay a much lower fee to only sell the content in one or two countries. The contract also likely says they MUST take steps to stop customers accessing the content outside those countries.

Except that Netflix is now available in 190 countries so this argument doesn't stack up.

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watsonash

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#1472341 16-Jan-2016 00:33

my suspicion is that Netflix will simply move to verify the location by forcing lookups to Google DNS and possibly OpenDNS servers.
Historically this was the case with the chromecast and the solution on this was previously to block the DNS to both google DNS and OpenDNS servers, the applicaiton would then fallback to whatever the DNS was set to on the device itself.

I have a public DNS group defined as this;
    group {
        address-group PublicDNS {
            address 8.8.8.8
            address 8.8.4.4
            address 209.244.0.3
            address 209.244.0.4
            address 208.67.222.222
            address 208.67.222.220
        }

I've noticed recently that on an Nvidia Shield TV blocking no longer appeared to work (for me atleast anyway), so what I do is to do a transparent destination nat redirection which instead of blocking the traffic, the DNS traffic is transparently redirected to the UnoTelly DNS server so that when the forced look up to any of the public DNS servers is done, the results are returned by unotelly DNS servers instead without the app being aware!
So when the Netlfix app on the ShieldTV verifies its geography via Google's DNS - it thinks I'm in the US as this matches the region of the Netflix region.
It works a treat.
If Netflix go down this route, they can probably kill 99% of people region hopping without any major negative impacts - except it will increase the sale of Ubiquity networking gear!

If they try to take out proxied UnoTelly DNS connections in general, they will struggle as UnoTelly will pop their proxy end points out in a different place and the wack-a-mole game would continue (similar to what BBC did last year with both VPN and DNS services that took UnoTelly about a week to work around).

(I'm using a Ubiquity Router ER-Lite - most routers will not have this type of capability).

    nat {
        rule 1 {
            destination {
                group {
                    address-group PublicDNS
                }
                port 53
            }
            inbound-interface eth0
            inside-address {
                address 103.6.212.24
            }
            log disable
            protocol tcp_udp
            type destination
        }

Netflix are always wanting to be seen as playing up to the content providers and not pissing off their current subscribers, so I believe they will always allow work arounds, it just takes some creative thinking to get around whatever restrictions they put in place.
Simple checks through credit cards are a very simple way as even if you purchased a gift card for say the US - you'd be stuck in the US region, whereas recently some content we've been watching was only available in Japan and South American countries for example.

Come on Netflix - bring it on! We maybe a small island but we have some bright cookies over here in NZ and we are happy to play your game, but rather stop wasting everyones time and keep the pressure up to force all content creators to negotiate world wide rights, to help to break down the local TV monopolies through the likes of Sky TV etc.

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