2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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#2692578 14-Apr-2021 11:52

networkn:

Batman:

...

According to Washington Post 6 clots, 7 million doses given.

So literally, 1 in a million chance.

Have the clots been fatal?

From the other article (https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/13/health/johnson-vaccine-pause-cdc-fda/index.html), 1 (out of the 6) died, 1 seriously ill. They were all in women 18-58, so for that age group the risk may be higher than one in a million. Actual risk will depend on what age groups have mainly got that vaccine; eg. if mainly elderly, the risk in younger people (women?) may be significantly higher than 1:1,000,000.

Appears this may be the case for AZ? eg.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/astrazeneca-blood-clot-dilemma-europe/2021/04/05/a8091e4e-914f-11eb-aadc-af78701a30ca_story.html

"The EMA has said there is no scientific evidence to back any age-specific restrictions like those imposed by some European countries. But the agency said that looking at shots given to those under 60, risk levels appear to be more like 1 in 100,000".

Also in same article, UK reported 30 cases of the brain clots and other clots among 18 million patients given AZ doses up to March 21 (presumably a wide cross-section of the population, though they did start with elderly). Seven (out of the 30) had died.

Whereas in Norway, "regulators have said the AstraZeneca vaccine “likely” caused clots in six medical workers among 120,000 people vaccinated" (so ~1:20,000, presumably mainly under-65?). Four (out of six!) died. Presumably being medical workers the Norway stats may be more complete than the whole UK figures?

Fred99

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#2692596 14-Apr-2021 12:29

networkn:

So literally, 1 in a million chance.

Have the clots been fatal?

Not sure about the J&J vaccine, but it's based on the same adenovirus vector as AZ (and other vaccines).

I think the risk of death is about 1 / million, risk of adverse "clotting" reaction is several times higher. but it depends who's being vaccinated, how follow up diagnosis is carried out etc, and who (if anybody) is collating the data, then quite possibly some reluctance by "officials" to want to give potential ammo to anti-vaxxers when risk is quite low (compared to risk from pandemic C-19)

Anyway, it's not just "clotting" than might happen randomly, it's a very specific and rare condition, an immune system response almost certainly due to the vaccine, a "real" side effect - as opposed to background noise of incidence of "normal" clotting.

It happens more frequently after the first dose (ie of the AZ vaccine), however if you survived that side effect from the first dose, you're probably not going back for shot #2, so that observation is probably self-explanatory.

It also seems to have occurred far more commonly in women under the age of 50. Most countries have done or plan to roll out the vaccine to vulnerable age groups first, over 75s, 65s over 50s - before mass vaccinating under 50s. If that reaction happens far more commonly in people under 50, then who's to say it might not be far more frequent again in even younger age groups. If so, then at some point it becomes unethical to administer a treatment if the risk from a treatment outweighs risk from the disease. That's actually a normal enough concept, you could get yourself CAT scanned twice a year when you're young - to make sure you don't have some condition very rare but fatal in young people, but the very real risk from repeated radiation exposure might well outweigh the risk of the disease you're looking for. It's not just the cost and availability of CAT scanners.

They need to find out what's going on - suspending rollout until they do know seems prudent.

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#2692601 14-Apr-2021 12:38

sbiddle:

So it seems the've finally found records showing when the MIQ worker was last tested - November.

The level of incompetence we're seeing is still truly unbelievable...

That's incredible.

I could jump to a conclusion and say that could only happen if the worker very deliberately avoided testing.
Thus if C-19 is an enemy we're at war with, for colluding to help the enemy you'd be court-martialled then shot at dawn.

This presumably is the same person who worked in MIQ and waited 3 days after developing symptoms to front up for testing?

On2or3wheels

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#2692602 14-Apr-2021 12:41

That article is from the 8th.

Batman:

new case overnight

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-new-border-related-case-a-24-year-old-grand-millennium-worker-23-new-cases-in-miq/Q4UAERDPYTKESEK4PDEVQVTLBY/

Fred99

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#2692615 14-Apr-2021 12:55

According to stuff:

'Many' NZ pilots not taking up Covid-19 vaccination, union says

Many New Zealand pilots are turning down the opportunity to be vaccinated against Covid-19, and are instead taking a “wait and see” approach to the vaccine rollout, a union representing them says.

That's a remarkable demographic. Maybe they also think a "wait and see" attitude should be used when red lights start flashing on the flight deck, rather than follow the manual.

networkn

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#2692616 14-Apr-2021 12:55

Fred99:

That's incredible.

Is it?! I don't think so. I'd say it's almost unsurprising at this point. How many of these types of revelations have been made?

What *is* incredible, is that we have avoided the majority of the most serious consequences of this ongoing incompetence.

My understanding from having a conversation with someone today, is there are dedicated people at each MIQ for whom their 40 hours a week job is keeping track of the testing status of all the workers at that facility.

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#2692619 14-Apr-2021 12:57

Fred99:

According to stuff:

'Many' NZ pilots not taking up Covid-19 vaccination, union says Many New Zealand pilots are turning down the opportunity to be vaccinated against Covid-19, and are instead taking a “wait and see” approach to the vaccine rollout, a union representing them says.
That's a remarkable demographic. Maybe they also think a "wait and see" attitude should be used when red lights start flashing on the flight deck, rather than follow the manual.

How is it even an optional thing? If you want to be customer-facing or adjacent, you should require a vaccination and regular tests? Don't want one, sure, find another job at the airline that isn't customer facing.

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#2692621 14-Apr-2021 12:59

On2or3wheels:

That article is from the 8th.

~~Batman:~~

~~new case overnight~~

S##! sorry why was in in the herald headlines! editor error!

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#2692623 14-Apr-2021 13:01

won't let me edit the previous post so a new one to say post deleted. and a sigh of relief

GV27

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#2692624 14-Apr-2021 13:02

networkn:

Is it?! I don't think so. I'd say it's almost unsurprising at this point. How many of these types of revelations have been made?

What *is* incredible, is that we have avoided the majority of the most serious consequences of this ongoing incompetence.

Added incredulousnesscosity: These are just the issues we are picking up.

The ones we don't know about that don't lead to long-chain transmission must be.... numerous.

networkn

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#2692625 14-Apr-2021 13:04

GV27:

networkn:

Is it?! I don't think so. I'd say it's almost unsurprising at this point. How many of these types of revelations have been made?

What *is* incredible, is that we have avoided the majority of the most serious consequences of this ongoing incompetence.

Added incredulousnesscosity: These are just the issues we are picking up.

The ones we don't know about that don't lead to long-chain transmission must be.... numerous.

And will anyone be held to account? Not likely.

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Fred99

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#2692626 14-Apr-2021 13:04

networkn:

Fred99:

That's incredible.

Is it?! I don't think so.

Well "remarkable" if not incredible.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300276642/live-ashley-bloomfield-and-chris-hipkins-give-update-on-covid-cases-and-vaccine-rollout

Questions from the media should be interesting.

networkn

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#2692631 14-Apr-2021 13:16

Fred99:

Well "remarkable" if not incredible.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300276642/live-ashley-bloomfield-and-chris-hipkins-give-update-on-covid-cases-and-vaccine-rollout

Questions from the media should be interesting.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/04/chris-bishop-chl-e-swarbrick-unite-in-criticism-of-labour-s-patsy-questioning-of-officials.html

They are just asking all the wrong questions, no wonder they aren't getting useful answers.

wellygary

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#2692654 14-Apr-2021 13:36

networkn:

And will anyone be held to account? Not likely.

Chances are the Security Guard ain't coming back

"Case B may have lied to employer over testing status – Hipkins"

antonknee

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#2692658 14-Apr-2021 13:40

wellygary:

networkn:

And will anyone be held to account? Not likely.

Chances are the Security Guard ain't coming back

"Case B may have lied to employer over testing status – Hipkins"

Indeed. The implication that this person is lying about getting tested regularly, and the revelation that the police had to get involved in order to get spending records to determine locations of interest, are both... well... very concerning. Especially given there appears to be nothing untoward in the case's locations of interest, why the secrecy on their part? And why lie about getting tested? I realise the tests aren't pleasant but I would want one for my own peace of mind if I worked in MIQ, let alone the fact it's a requirement.

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