2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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#2780692 19-Sep-2021 16:05

They would take money. And still visit family and friends.

Didn't work for the US. We're even better at finding ways around rules.

mattwnz

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#2780694 19-Sep-2021 16:10

GV27:
mattwnz:

Which means level 4 hasn't been adhered to by some people. So it isn't a case of Delta being too hard to eliminate, but flouters letting the team of 5 million down. But I guess the media won't focus on this.

The police helicopter has been out almost every night out here under lockdown. It is out every night when there isn't a lockdown. At some point you are going to get into the part of the community that generally don't give a damn about the community and do what they want when they want. And then the game is over.

That's a little bit like trying to find a needle in a haystack. Maybe it is more of an illusion than anything. I don't think the rest of NZ will react well to a level drop when there is still signs of CT. Only makes sense if there is evidence that the outbreak is ring fenced. I don't think they have come out and said that. THe number of cases bring picked up are also just a subset of total cases. There will be cases that never get detected, but this isn't a problem in level 4 if everyone is sticking to the rules. But it becomes more of a problem in level 3.

Handle9

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#2780695 19-Sep-2021 16:11

mattwnz:

$4k fines for leaving level 4 IMO is a wet bus ticket when compared to NZ house prices which now average 1 million dollars.

Do you think everyone who breaks the rules owns a house? How is that in any way relevant?

Fines have an impact to a point and then it's just more noise.

mattwnz

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#2780698 19-Sep-2021 16:14

Handle9:
mattwnz:

$4k fines for leaving level 4 IMO is a wet bus ticket when compared to NZ house prices which now average 1 million dollars.

Do you think everyone who breaks the rules owns a house? How is that in any way relevant?

Fines have an impact to a point and then it's just more noise.

Its relevant in terms of the relative cost for some people. Some people will see it as worth the risk. 4k isn't alot for some these days, considering they billions they could cost the economy if they cause an outbreak. Whereas if the fine was similar to the fines they are dishing out in Oz, people may think twice.

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#2780699 19-Sep-2021 16:15

mattwnz:
Handle9:

Do you think everyone who breaks the rules owns a house? How is that in any way relevant?

Fines have an impact to a point and then it's just more noise.

Its relevant in terms of the relative cost for some people. Some people will see it as worth the risk. Whereas if the fine was similar to the fines they are dishing out in Oz, people may think twice.

How's that working out in Australia?

mattwnz

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#2780702 19-Sep-2021 16:20

It has worked, and they eliminated it last year and states have eliminated it this year. But NSW failed to lockdown quick enough and Victoria is now following NSW. But Oz has a far better health system to cope with living with the virus with high vaccination.

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#2780707 19-Sep-2021 16:31

mattwnz:

It has worked, and they eliminated it last year and states have eliminated it this year. But NSW failed to lockdown quick enough and Victoria is now following NSW. But Oz has a far better health system to cope with living with the virus with high vaccination.

So it hasn't worked.

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tdgeek

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#2780715 19-Sep-2021 17:29

Geektastic:

I was reading today of the vaccine measures now in place in Italy.

Anyone thinking we are being draconian here should have a look. Essentially, no vaccine, no anything. You can attend Mass and go shopping. That is it. No trains or planes. No restaurants or pubs. No sports events or cultural museum visits. And no going to work.

"On Thursday, Draghi's government of national unity issued a new decree extending 'Il Green Pass' to the entire workforce: 23 million Italians. This will come into effect on 15 October.

The unvaccinated have already been banned since 6 August from most indoor public places such as bars, restaurants and gyms, plus many outdoor ones such as football stadiums and the Colosseum. And since 1 September from planes, ferries, inter-regional trains and coaches, plus universities (staff and students) and schools (staff only). The vaccine has been compulsory for health workers since April."

The Spectator

As has been stated, the "pandemic" (i.e.global) is now and epidemic (i.e. local) of the unvaccinated. Italy was one of the first infected.

What is your point?

tdgeek

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#2780716 19-Sep-2021 17:39

mattwnz:

On2or3wheels:

The media/PM confirmed my theory, families have been mingling. Some of this could of course be around looking after children but something will have to change or we'll never get out of this until everyone is fully vaccinated.

I couldn't believe my ears when I heard that, and although many of us probably suspected it, they have been aware of this. Each time a bubble breaks, it resets the 14 day clock. The problem is that many of these would likely be in lower social economic areas with lots of people living in each household, and many will be essential workers who need to work, because there has been no government helicopter payments to help everyone. They need to get a lot tougher IMO with larger fines. $4k fines for leaving level 4 IMO is a wet bus ticket when compared to NZ house prices which now average 1 million dollars. If they drop to level 3 on monday, I think many people will not be happy.

Even with high vaccination our health system wouldn't cope, hospitals struggled this year with just winter illnesses. They announced some funding today, but nothing for hospitals and increasing capacity.

NO!

Yes families have been mingling and I will go out on a limb here and say it is Pasifika families mingling. Its a culture thing, you cannot expect everyone to act like sheep. I act like sheep. I am a white European but I am related to by marriage to Maoris, and Cook Islanders and I know many Samoans. Fiji had the same issue, intermingling of families as they continued the social fabric that they have, that us whites dont have. It needs to be accounted for as a social difference.

I dont feel that large fines, million dollar houses, wet bus tickets, manages the NZ populous. It works for Putin but we are a multi cultural society, so you need to manage those cultural differences. If I was to blame anyone Id blame the Govt and MoH for not doing that. The problem in this society that created discrimination, is that you cant ascribe a change to manage cultural differences as thats discrimination.

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#2780717 19-Sep-2021 17:41

mattwnz:

Which means level 4 hasn't been adhered to by some people. So it isn't a case of Delta being too hard to eliminate, but flouters letting the team of 5 million down. But I guess the media won't focus on this.

Depends if the flouters are party animals, or another social fabric of NZ that has not been considered.

tdgeek

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#2780719 19-Sep-2021 17:44

On2or3wheels:

tdgeek:

That was my feel. BUT when they say its less of an issue I agree wth that. L4 is the reason why those transmissions would stay in the home(s) Id rather catch it from my Aunty paying a clandestine visit, than mysteriously. IMO that reduces significantly the real dangers in Auckland.

Umm, probably not. If the houses are mixing to look after children it's probably because someone is going to work. It was confirmed by the PM that there has been transfer within essential work places, just not supermarkets.

So house intermingling is false?

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#2780720 19-Sep-2021 17:49

mattwnz:

This is why helicopter payments were needed along with paymentsto those who are close contacts in certain households. . A lot of people who are essential workers can't afford not to go to work. I think they needed to do a lot more with this. It isn't logical for Auckland to drop a level and if it does, it won't have learnt from the error that was made last time when they dropped to level 3 too early. NZ has no choice currently apart from elimination due to low vaccinations and a poor health system that has had years of under investment. We don't have the luxury of a good health system like most countries have, who can afford to live with the virus circulating in the community. This is why some of the experts have said that NZ needs vaccination rates in the high 90s. .

How many are in ICU? The elimination policy counters that, this is not Italy. Low vaccinations. IIRC 78% have had the first dose, I cant recall the two dose figure but in a few short weeks that 78% becomes 78% fully vaccinated.

I get the conservative viewpoint, but it becomes glass half empty rather quick. NZ has the fastest dosage per capita at the moment. Time was bought, its being used now. 26 deaths, check the OECD

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#2780722 19-Sep-2021 17:52

mattwnz: I don't think the rest of NZ will react well to a level drop when there is still signs of CT.

What was the CT today?

On2or3wheels

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#2780728 19-Sep-2021 18:07

tdgeek:

So house intermingling is false?

I thought you were saying there's not much of an issue with households intermingling. I was pointing out what happens when they go to work.

tdgeek

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#2780734 19-Sep-2021 18:19

On2or3wheels:

tdgeek:

So house intermingling is false?

I thought you were saying there's not much of an issue with households intermingling. I was pointing out what happens when they go to work.

If they go to the supermarket its no issue. Work is no issue. But as has been stated "some" workplaces can be an issue, but compared to all AKL workplaces its no issue. Some workplaces that are a bit lax, yes it can cause leaks, but my point was that AKL overall, is probably quite clean. Is this an Auckland issue or a suburb issue? If there are some lax workplaces, they can be told to improve or be shut down. Auckland is a large city, population wise or geographically, but you need to wonder how much of this large pop/space is a problem?

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