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mattwnz
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  #2797214 18-Oct-2021 17:56
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ezbee:

 


The levels effect the mobility of everyone. Even with flouting.
There is still a lot less mixing and people interacting with Level 3 than level 2.

 

Loitering and wandering isles of Mitre10, Farmers, shops and malls, sit down café and restaurant service and bars.
These greatly accelerate mixing across groups and spread well beyond the parties.

 

It would not be acceptable to leave Maori behind without having expended maximum effort.
Apparently in 2018 the proportion of Maori doctors was 3.5%, and lack of GPS in certain areas may also effect engagement.
Possibly also a reflection of proportions in Science etc 

 

Who knew you need a high level of social cohesion, drug reform, affordable housing, strong medical, education and social services.
In a pandemic.

 

Something to consider in opening up the export food baskets to Auckland.
One of our largest trade partner has signaled a case in this chain and exports stop, product on the way rejected.
That's a significant problem to deal with our cash cow in future when rest of NZ wants to join Auckland.

 

 

 

 

Many people in level 2 are living like they are in level 3. Level 2 for many is just level 3 with haircuts or cafes, but I have found there aren't as many people out and about in town. All level 2 areas are potentially hours away from being put back into level 3 or 4 should a new case be picked up, because outside Auckland, NZ is still following elimination. 




tdgeek
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  #2797215 18-Oct-2021 17:58
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GV27:

 

So we can't live week by week, but we're now getting at least two more weeks with a set of rules we know only work if people comply with them, but that people aren't complying with?

 

I'm not sure I'm quite getting the messaging right here, are we making any progress at all with this? 

 

 

Level 4 was the same. When cases started rising recently they were still Level 4 cases.


mattwnz
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  #2797216 18-Oct-2021 18:00
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arcon:

 

Level 3 for two more weeks then a review, pretty much what I figured. Also "asking for people to comply".

 

While it was good to hear that police are "looking into breaches", IMO the messaging is not nearly hard enough. I'm not suggesting Labour pulls a China - whips a guy strapped to a concrete post which "accidentally" gets filmed lol, but just saying "parties are not allowed" is a proven failed tactic.

 

A police or Govt spokesperson should be updating the media with specific breaches & charges etc, and it should be as much of a talking point as daily cases. A little fear can be very constructive for people who don't understand respect.

 

 

 

 

 

 

IMO they are basically passing the buck back onto the public who are flouting, to lift their game. Those people flouting the rules are the problem etc, as are the people who are not getting vaccinated. The messaging used to be that the virus is the problem not the people, but that messaging seems to have now changed. IMO there should be far more of 'stay home saves lives' etc, until we have reached full vaccination, and instant fines for those who are not.




Rikkitic
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  #2797219 18-Oct-2021 18:09
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mattwnz:

 

Isn't that what instant fines are for. eg similar to traffic infringements?

 

 

I suspect that instant jail might have more impact in this case.

 

 





Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

 


 


Batman

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  #2797222 18-Oct-2021 18:17
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GV27:

 

Level 3 "works if people follow the rules".

 

Except they aren't, so why are we sticking with it for two more weeks? 

 

 

they won't. what's going to make them suddenly follow rules when they haven't followed rules for the last 3 months ...

 

it's like teacher telling students to behave. 


cokemaster
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  #2797231 18-Oct-2021 18:54
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@Batman exactly. Unpicking that a bit further, I think without an 'engagement' circuit breaker is required. 

 

Aucklanders are tired, demoralised and don't see a pathway to freedom. Its hard to explain to folks outside of Auckland but its definitely there, I assure you and being mocked only builds up the resentment. The current 1PM / 4PM briefings don't engage with them. Continuing to engage with the status quo, will probably result in even less compliance.

Today: We already have enough (~2K) Aucklanders who are prepared to have 'picnics' with Brian T, I suspect that these numbers will grow overtime if something doesn't change (and his ilk messaging appears to become less extreme and more mainstream). 

 

How do you solve this? Enforcement of Level 3 rules? Sure - that will work in the short term. But long term, it will build resentment against the police (who enforce the rules) and the government (who implement the rules). Clearly the government has read the crystal glass and determined that this doesn't poll very well. A disgruntled Auckland could play out poorly in an election. 

 

What I think is needed (and *may* already be happening) is: 

 

  • A very clear roadmap to freedom with KPI's / milestones. I would picture these being around infection rates and/or immunisation rates.
    In the event that immunisation rates are chosen, should outside of Auckland immunisation rates be a factor, the government (and the relevant DHB's) must move with urgency to plug the gaps immunisation. Auckland locking down because of uncontrolled infections and/or low vaccinations is one thing, Auckland loading down for months because region xyz hasn't vaccinated is another.

  • For businesses impacted - support must be provided. Its great that some support is being offered already but this doesn't fully cover the cost of staff, leases and other costs. If people cannot work from home and cannot bring in money, they're hurting... big time and are more likely to ignore the rules in order to bring some cash home.

  • Enforcement needs to be improved. Public gatherings should be cracked down there and then, not having organisers summoned to court days later. This needs to be linked to the roadmap. There is only so much 'educational' lessons before you start dropping fines that escalate (eg. $150 for the first, $400 for the second, $4000 for the third).

  • Show as-close-to realtime progress on KPI's/milestones as possible. Ideally in the Covid app, websites, media, social media etc. Make people feel engaged and 'doing their part for freedom'. This needs to be a 'peoples victory' not a 'beltway victory'.

 

 

Everyone can feel free to flame me now...

 

 

 

 





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Batman

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  #2797285 18-Oct-2021 19:07
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we all agree with you, we've been saying this for eons, but what's the point.

 

unless the govt reads GZ ....


mattwnz
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  #2797289 18-Oct-2021 19:12
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Batman:

we all agree with you, we've been saying this for eons, but what's the point.


unless the govt reads GZ ....



Well the MOH said today at the standup that they receive other experts advice via what is published by the media, so anything is possible. I would have thought they were engaging with all these different experts directly when making decisions. It does show how powerful the media is because they can curate which experts they use to support a particular story

Batman

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  #2797293 18-Oct-2021 19:36
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well according to John Key the govt adopted his idea of a telethon vaccination drive lol

 

but Geekzone is not in their working groups unfortunately


Batman

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  #2797311 18-Oct-2021 20:04
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85,000 surgeries had to be cancelled ("deferred") during lockdown (aug 15 - sept 26) ... https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-1000-surgeries-cancelled-every-week/UWGKLTITX5AW77V4XQMIZLYWO4/

 

 


arcon
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  #2797325 18-Oct-2021 20:34
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Dingbatt:

 

I'm assuming most people have seen the videos of various Australian Police forces 'dealing' with flouters and protesters. The optics are not great and why I believe the current enforcement tactic is being followed.

 

 

Optics have no relation to enforcement of private flouters and/or the Govt / police regularly announcing updates of disciplines that have been enacted.

 

It might however be a good reason why they didn't shut down a large scale protest like Tamaki. Not just optics but I can see the logic in not wanting to make a semi-spreader event into a super-duper spreader if 2,000 people got angry.


 
 
 

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cokemaster
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  #2797330 18-Oct-2021 20:42
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I fully understand the dilemma that the police are in. They don't want pictures akin to the South African rugby tours.

 

However by not doing anything (even a token effort like closing road access to the park or putting up checkpoints to stop more folks from arriving) they've set another image: having mass breaches of the public health order aren't serious, don't worry, we can just sort it out in the days-weeks to follow.

 

 

 

 





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Handle9
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  #2797357 18-Oct-2021 20:51
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mattwnz:

Rikkitic:


It would be helpful if there could be a near-instant response between crime and punishment. I don't know if that is possible but saying the police are investigating something and then having it disappear from the news until sometime later when there may or may not be a prosecution removes the impact of a slap in the face. If you could have police go into an illegal party, come out with some of the guests, haul them off to the station, chuck them into a cell overnight while they are being 'processed', then stick them in front of a 24-hour judge and sentence them to two weeks, I bet they would get the message loud and clear. 


 



 


Isn't that what instant fines are for. eg similar to traffic infringements?



Instant fines can still be challenged in court.

ezbee
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  #2797358 18-Oct-2021 20:52
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Problem with roadmaps out of Covid there are few to no proven ones, its all WIP.
Then examples like Singapore are very different to us.
( Limited freedoms, Government Housing, Emphasis on Social Cohesion and education )
Denmark well
( Bit late to build their high tax structure )

 

Singapore confronts division and fear as the country moves away from 'zero-Covid'
https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/300432375/living-with-covid19-singapore-confronts-division-and-fear-as-the-country-moves-away-from-zerocovid

""
Before September, fewer than 70,000 of the country's 5.45 million residents had contracted Covid -- about 1.2 per cent of the population. Cases now exceed 3,000 on some days, a genuinely alarming figure for many in a city that saw just 29 deaths in the virus's first year.
""
One nurse at a private hospital described 14-hour double shifts and colleagues resigning due to stress - Singapore's first taste of the sort of chaos that emerged last year in the US and Europe. The nurse said she felt torn about the right strategy, but wished the government had been more decisive as frequent policy changes had only made the public's anxiety worse.
""

 

9 more Singaporeans die from Covid-19 complications; 3,058 new infections
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/9-more-singaporeans-die-of-covid-19-3058-new-infections

""
As at Sunday, 15,918 patients were recovering at home, with 2,986 patients in community care facilities and 734 patients in Covid-19 treatment facilities.

 

There were 1,651 patients in hospital, up from 1,464 on Saturday, with 327 patients requiring oxygen support.

 

The number of patients in the intensive care unit increased to 66 from 62 on Saturday.
""

 

I don't know where we would put the 1,651 they have to have in Hospital, um Carpark ? 
Or would Wilsons tow your bed and send you a fine ?


Handle9
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  #2797360 18-Oct-2021 21:02
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cokemaster:

Aucklanders are tired, demoralised and don't see a pathway to freedom. Its hard to explain to folks outside of Auckland but its definitely there, I assure you and being mocked only builds up the resentment. The current 1PM / 4PM briefings don't engage with them. Continuing to engage with the status quo, will probably result in even less compliance.

Today: We already have enough (~2K) Aucklanders who are prepared to have 'picnics' with Brian T, I suspect that these numbers will grow overtime if something doesn't change (and his ilk messaging appears to become less extreme and more mainstream). 




Aucklanders have begun to understand what the last 18 months have been like for those of us overseas. 18 months of no pathway to see our families in NZ hasn’t been good. When anyone had the temerity to complain they got attacked. It sucks.

Auckland is going through what the rest of the world has gone through for the last 18 months. It’s awful and I hope you can all get some degree of normalcy for Christmas. It’s not going to be a good six months but it is what it is.

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