2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

Forums › Health and fitness › 2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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Max
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#2831273 13-Dec-2021 11:02

Technofreak:

kyhwana2:

No, you're missing the point that the anti-vaxxers are the ones that are sowing division. Everyone else getting vaccinated are doing it for public health, as well as their own.

I'm not missing the point at all. What some people are failing to understand is how we see the pandemic and the use of vaccines isn't how some of the anti vaxxers see the pandemic and the vaccines. Using our logic to explain and rationalise with them does not work.

While we see them as being devisive by not having the vaccine they see the actions like vaccine mandates (things we support) as being devisive.

Actions like mandates and restrictions for the unvaxxed are further entrenching the divisions. From our perspective it is self inflicted but from their perspective it is out right punitive. There is a siege mentality with a lot of these people. The hard we try to push/encourage the harder they push back.

The rifts and scars within families and communities will extend way way past the end of the pandemic and while I agree with the sentiments of your post, expressing those sentiments to many of the people I know just makes things a whole lot worse by several magnitudes.

If you haven't seen the sort of thing I'm talking about you're either very lucky or blind to what is happening.

I don't know what the answer is but we need to find a way to bridge the gap somehow.

If they can't trust not only the science but also the values of not just being protected from such a horrible virus but also protecting others then they're selfish idiots and they're not going to move on from this hill they're choosing to die on unless they get COVID themselves(like some of these deniers turned believers and become pro vax) and see the actual effects themselves(not that I wish for anyone to get COVID in the first place).

There is no bridging the gap between these people. These people have always existed and this goes beyond just being anti vax, they also have extremely terrible views on other things (not going to mention because it's unrelated to this).

The cold heart truth is that you just can't win some people over and they've made these choices for themselves and this is the way they will have to choose to live their life.

The restrictions we have under the traffic light system will pretty much protect the people who are vaccinated(like all of us) and the vulnerable and we can happily enjoy our freedoms and our life the way we want.

If this isn't clear. It's their choice to be unvaxxed or vaxxed. Just remember there are consequences to being unvaxxed and choosing to believe in absolute false crap that comes out of unvaxxed people trying to convince others to not be vaxxed against a terrible virus.

Ramblings from a mysterious lady who's into tech. Warning I may often create zingers.

MaxineN

Max
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#2831276 13-Dec-2021 11:07

MikeB4:

I wanted to relay why some and I mean those who are hesitant or scared to take the vaccine. This may get me hit with the ban hammer, I hope not, I want to share a personal experience.

At the beginning of this year in an attempt to get my medical condition under control a decision was made to try a new “experimental” regime to arrest the progression. At first this successful but unfortunately a few months back it all went very bad. The drug treatment being used created a series of very bad side effects that came very close to ending my life. My kidneys came close to shutting down, my blood pressure rose rapidly, and my heart went into arrhythmia. Thankfully it had a good outcome in the end even though the fight is not over yet.

Now this is not a vaccine related incident but I share this to give an incite as to why some folks are hesitant about getting an obviously life saving vaccination. I was initially very scared of getting my first vaccine shot but with the support of my medical people and my son I overcame the anxiety and panic attacks and got vaccinated, three times now and look forward to the booster in 2022.

I am again not talking about the scumbag anti vax manipulators and profit makers here I am relating what maybe the situation with your neighbour colleague or stranger. This took a lot of soul searching, trepidation and tears to try and write this. All I ask is you read it and not judge.

Hi Mike

The above post I just made doesn't include people who legitimately can't get it because of their health. I completely understand this and medical exemptions should be made until a vaccine that protects against this doesn't cause any other further medical events. I get why some might be hesitant but those people should REALLY talk to their GP and I am pretty sure that they could very much get all of the support and help they need to make sure that they're okay after the first and second dose.

Not all hesitancy is BS I get that but most use it as an excuse because they don't go to their health professional for advice and don't trust the science.

I can't sugar coat this post so this probably still comes off as pretty crappy but as someone who is immuno compromised and had a pretty nasty second dose reaction(my entire torso rashed up and dried up including a full on flu), it was still worth it not just for me but for everyone else including my lovely fiancée who she is also immuno comprormised.

There is support out there for people who are afraid and there are ways vaccination can be done for people who fear they may have bad reactions and need monitoring. They just have to ask.

Ramblings from a mysterious lady who's into tech. Warning I may often create zingers.

Batman

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#2831287 13-Dec-2021 11:18

MikeB4:
I wanted to relay why some and I mean those who are hesitant or scared to take the vaccine. This may get me hit with the ban hammer, I hope not, I want to share a personal experience.

At the beginning of this year in an attempt to get my medical condition under control a decision was made to try a new “experimental” regime to arrest the progression. At first this successful but unfortunately a few months back it all went very bad. The drug treatment being used created a series of very bad side effects that came very close to ending my life. My kidneys came close to shutting down, my blood pressure rose rapidly, and my heart went into arrhythmia. Thankfully it had a good outcome in the end even though the fight is not over yet.

Now this is not a vaccine related incident but I share this to give an incite as to why some folks are hesitant about getting an obviously life saving vaccination. I was initially very scared of getting my first vaccine shot but with the support of my medical people and my son I overcame the anxiety and panic attacks and got vaccinated, three times now and look forward to the booster in 2022.

I understand what you're saying but with all due respect that no longer is true.

Hundreds of millions of people have had the treatment by now.

And if they still can't see that, and choose to believe the handful of conspiracies, they are no longer able to make informed choices.

For example you have personally had an experimental treatment. You nearly died. You have taken 3 shots of pfizer.

They have not personally taken anything experimental and have not nearly died. They want to join the pie in the sky cult.

You are not them. They are not like you. They have chosen to join a cult of fear. You have decided to think for yourself.

MikeB4

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#2831289 13-Dec-2021 11:21

MaxineN:

Hi Mike

The above post I just made doesn't include people who legitimately can't get it because of their health. I completely understand this and medical exemptions should be made until a vaccine that protects against this doesn't cause any other further medical events. I get why some might be hesitant but those people should REALLY talk to their GP and I am pretty sure that they could very much get all of the support and help they need to make sure that they're okay after the first and second dose.

Not all hesitancy is BS I get that but most use it as an excuse because they don't go to their health professional for advice and don't trust the science.

I can't sugar coat this post so this probably still comes off as pretty crappy but as someone who is immuno compromised and had a pretty nasty second dose reaction(my entire torso rashed up and dried up including a full on flu), it was still worth it not just for me but for everyone else including my lovely fiancée who she is also immuno comprormised.

There is support out there for people who are afraid and there are ways vaccination can be done for people who fear they may have bad reactions and need monitoring. They just have to ask.

I absolutely accept what you are saying, I too are immune compromised and this is why I have received three shots. I strongly believe your fiancee should push for the third shot (not booster they are different). My third gave me a very aching arm and fatigued for a few days but worth it. The small side effect indicates the vaccine is educating the immune system.

I was lucky I had support but our tragic mental health support makes it very very hard for some both in the regions and in the cities.

Nothing is ever clear cut.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

surfisup1000

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#2831300 13-Dec-2021 11:40

MikeB4:

Things need to be dialed down in Aotearoa.

My 15yr old daughter gets abused occasionally at her hospitality job (from vaxxed who don't want to show passes and unvaxxed who don't have one). My partner gets abused at work more regularly now too (nurse), not so much over the vax stuff cos thats sorted out at the entrances. Theft is endemic now, and allowed due to the danger of policing it.

MikeB4

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#2831312 13-Dec-2021 11:50

surfisup1000:

My 15yr old daughter gets abused occasionally at her hospitality job (from vaxxed who don't want to show passes and unvaxxed who don't have one). My partner gets abused at work more regularly now too (nurse), not so much over the vax stuff cos thats sorted out at the entrances. Theft is endemic now, and allowed due to the danger of policing it.

Your daughter and partner should never have to deal with this ever. It is wrong on all levels. My point about dialling it down was about this and it all needs to be de-escalated before someone is seriously hurt or worse.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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Oblivian

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#2831376 13-Dec-2021 12:14

The only way of de-escalating it, is go back to no traffic light. And let everyone mix and go to hell with it.

Or fine everyone $1000 for not being jabbed for every month like overseas until they change their view

Neither of which have good outcomes.

The 3rd option would have been much better. Switch of the internet. Because FB and the rest have fueled it to this point. But oh wait, that's censorship of 'free speech'...

Good in theory, impossible in principal.

clinty

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#2831391 13-Dec-2021 12:44

MikeB4:

In some ways the divisions that are developing in Aotearoa mirror the treatment of the Gay community when Aids first appeared. The anger mirrors that of the anti springbok tour, anti nuclear, climate change and is showing again in the Groundswell protests.

The Fauci Doco on Disney+ covers this, as he was involved in that as well. He talks about how similar the two outbreaks were, the divisions, but also how he was able to eventually involve the homosexual community in the discussions.

A good doco all round

Clint

SJB

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#2831393 13-Dec-2021 12:46

Good Stuff article about the psychology surrounding the elimination strategy and the moving away from it.

Covid 19 NZ: Why 'elimination' (inadvertently) kind of messed with our brains | Stuff.co.nz

Sup

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#2831397 13-Dec-2021 12:49

MikeB4:

I wanted to relay why some and I mean those who are hesitant or scared to take the vaccine. This may get me hit with the ban hammer, I hope not, I want to share a personal experience.

At the beginning of this year in an attempt to get my medical condition under control a decision was made to try a new “experimental” regime to arrest the progression. At first this successful but unfortunately a few months back it all went very bad. The drug treatment being used created a series of very bad side effects that came very close to ending my life. My kidneys came close to shutting down, my blood pressure rose rapidly, and my heart went into arrhythmia. Thankfully it had a good outcome in the end even though the fight is not over yet.

Now this is not a vaccine related incident but I share this to give an incite as to why some folks are hesitant about getting an obviously life saving vaccination. I was initially very scared of getting my first vaccine shot but with the support of my medical people and my son I overcame the anxiety and panic attacks and got vaccinated, three times now and look forward to the booster in 2022.

I am again not talking about the scumbag anti vax manipulators and profit makers here I am relating what maybe the situation with your neighbour colleague or stranger. This took a lot of soul searching, trepidation and tears to try and write this. All I ask is you read it and not judge.

Thanks for sharing. We are all faced with a little fear before getting that first jab, for most it is pushed to the back of the mind, secure in the knowledge that Covid is far worse.

What you went through / are dealing with is very different, you no longer have a clear and overwhelming reassurance that the risks are far out weighed by the benefits.

Glad you got through three shots okay. Respect to you for your empathy, some in your position may think...well I got vaccinated so what is your excuse.

Just keep swimming...

Sup

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#2831401 13-Dec-2021 12:57

clinty:

MikeB4:

In some ways the divisions that are developing in Aotearoa mirror the treatment of the Gay community when Aids first appeared. The anger mirrors that of the anti springbok tour, anti nuclear, climate change and is showing again in the Groundswell protests.

The Fauci Doco on Disney+ covers this, as he was involved in that as well. He talks about how similar the two outbreaks were, the divisions, but also how he was able to eventually involve the homosexual community in the discussions.

A good doco all round

Clint

Anthony Fauci is an amazing scientist. He is vilified by the far right extremists as Satan incarnate, the head of the target list for Antivaxx far right bio terrorism.

I am annoyed with the gain of function research situation around the world, I do not trust our ability to interfere with the ecosystem by introducing enhancements for the greater good. This thinking reminds me of the many experiments in this country with introduced species to control other introduced species.

The risk does not justify manipulating the environment.

Vaccines are a form of manipulation / interference in the natural order, however they have a time honored place in the protection of people, with very little evidence of unforeseen downstream negative impacts.

A friend of mine would send me compelling anti Fauci videos, mainly around the gain of function lab work the US funded in China.

I pointed out to him that the proliferation of that message helps advance the global antiscience movement, he stopped sending me material.

Just keep swimming...

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kyhwana2

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#2831468 13-Dec-2021 13:42

Technofreak:

kyhwana2:

No, you're missing the point that the anti-vaxxers are the ones that are sowing division. Everyone else getting vaccinated are doing it for public health, as well as their own.

If you haven't seen the sort of thing I'm talking about you're either very lucky or blind to what is happening.

I don't know what the answer is but we need to find a way to bridge the gap somehow.

I have family that are anti-vaxxers and tbh there just isn't any way to bridge the gap, believe me i've tried. These people have gone too far down the anti-vaxx rabbit hole and aren't coming back out.

At this point i'm just done with them and I refuse to interact with them in anyway (including in person, because screw that)

Maybe once they catch covid they'll change their tune, but by then it's too late and I won't even bother to try to tell them I told them so.

quickymart

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#2831480 13-Dec-2021 14:02

I'm terrible like that, in the above scenario I would say to any antivaxxers (including family) "I told you so" without any qualms at all. More like "maybe you should have listened to the science, not the former chemist?"

Sup

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#2831482 13-Dec-2021 14:06

Boris Johnson's Govt have raised the UK's alert level to four (five is the highest) latest modelling from he UK is eye opening.

Even the best case scenario is alarming (best case meaning the new call to boost everyone is delivered rappidly).

They have declared an Omicron emergency and made boosters available to all citizens over the age of 18 before the end of the month. Omicron is doubling every 2.4 days now, it will be half of all UK cases by this time next week.

Worst case modelling from now till April:

34.2 million infections.

492,000 hospital admissions.

74,900 deaths.

This type of dire modelling assumes that the figures in South Africa are padded by the level of natural immunity, versus the estimated levels of vaccine immunity in the UK.

The best case scenario models look a lot better but are still throwing up massive numbers very quickly (till April next year)

20.1 Million infections

175,000 hospital admissions

24,700 deaths.

As we know well, models are often wrong due to multiple variables that offset the projections. However that best case scenario is a high starting place.

Just keep swimming...

mattwnz

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#2831487 13-Dec-2021 14:14

kyhwana2:

Technofreak:

If you haven't seen the sort of thing I'm talking about you're either very lucky or blind to what is happening.

I don't know what the answer is but we need to find a way to bridge the gap somehow.

I have family that are anti-vaxxers and tbh there just isn't any way to bridge the gap, believe me i've tried. These people have gone too far down the anti-vaxx rabbit hole and aren't coming back out.

At this point i'm just done with them and I refuse to interact with them in anyway (including in person, because screw that)

Maybe once they catch covid they'll change their tune, but by then it's too late and I won't even bother to try to tell them I told them so.

They may change their mind if one of them gets it bad. The problem is that NZ has been insulated from it and what people see on TV is just like a movie. But the fact is that even in the UK which has relatively high vaccination , they could be heading back into restrictions and they seem worried about it especially with omicron which is spreading a lot. They are saying people need the booster jab to have better protection against omicron, I wonder if it will be brought forward in NZ.

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