2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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#2453908 3-Apr-2020 16:07

Sideface:
This sounds like the Chinese approach to Covid-19 management - shoot the messenger. 😮

Please attribute correctly.

"During the early Warring States period of China (circa 260 BCE) the concept of chivalry and virtue prevented the executions of messengers sent by opposing sides."

What you are referring to is Chinese communist party. They are not equivalent.

markhodgeNZ

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#2453915 3-Apr-2020 16:23

dogstar001:
FineWine:
Oh to be young and stupid again - NOT

28 Texas Students Have Coronavirus After Spring Break Trip

A group of about 70 students from the University of Texas at Austin celebrated spring break in Mexico, but returned to find that 28 had tested positive. Dozens more are being monitored.

I don't know. I guess it's sort of a moral question. Should young people have to put their lives on hold so some 84 year old can live to be 86. That's essentially what is happening here with COVID19. I see both arguements.

So negligence and manslaughter is fine with you as long as it is only old people?

kingdragonfly

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#2453925 3-Apr-2020 16:34

I think we're getting an outbreak of "pedantry syndrome."

Most people would have no idea that the expression "shoot the messenger" originated with ancient Chinese history. I doubt you did, till you Googled it.

I doubt anyone thought "the Chinese approach to Covid-19 management" wouldn't have construed it was about the current Chinese government.

neb

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#2453927 3-Apr-2020 16:41

Ge0rge: I guess if we tagged everyone, perhaps with an earring, so we could track them accurately, it'd be much easier!
Logically it makes absolute sense, but getting it to happen however...

We could do what they do to kids at school and give them little stars to wear, nice symmetrical ones with six points.

No wait, that's already been done before...

Technofreak

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#2453936 3-Apr-2020 16:43

FineWine:

Oh to be young and stupid again - NOT

28 Texas Students Have Coronavirus After Spring Break Trip

A group of about 70 students from the University of Texas at Austin celebrated spring break in Mexico, but returned to find that 28 had tested positive. Dozens more are being monitored.

dogstar001:

I don't know. I guess it's sort of a moral question. Should young people have to put their lives on hold so some 84 year old can live to be 86. That's essentially what is happening here with COVID19. I see both arguements.

The fallacy of that argument is that it's not just 84 year olds dying, young people are too.

Is it too much to ask, for the betterment of the community as a whole, for those with most of their life still in front of them to put their lives on hold for what in the big scheme of things isn't that long ? I don't think so.

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neb

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#2453937 3-Apr-2020 16:45

canine:
There have been a few articles over last couple of months showing indication sarscov2 may have potential beyond just becoming endemic, with Epstein Barr like dormancy hypothesized. Also I saw a while back a study, small sample set though, showing possibility that up to 20% of "recovered" have some degree of pulmonary fibrosis.

There have been several reports, all of them preliminary obviously, of potential long-term effects due to assorted internal organ damage. It'll take years before we really know, and in particular I haven't seen any that compare long-term Covid19 damage to long-term flu damage, if there is any. In other words is it a type of long-term viral damage that we've been dealing with for centuries, or is Covid19 particularly bad?

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#2453941 3-Apr-2020 16:50

Sideface:
The Navy on Thursday removed the captain of an aircraft carrier crippled by the coronavirus, two days after a blunt letter the officer wrote warning the service of the need to get more sailors off the vessel created a furor.

That's just how the military works. You don't go public with serious "problems" you can't solve yourself- you pass it up the chain of command then "forgetaboutit" because you have absolute faith that your superior officers are superior.

They'll possibly court martial him to send a message to others - don't rely on getting a pension if you step out of line.

Same as if you blow the whistle about corruption in corporates these days. Blow the whistle and you risk being nailed / dismissed for "serious misconduct" in a well-oiled machine.

neb

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#2453947 3-Apr-2020 16:54

FineWine:
Another update letter from the MoH re the retired Med Squad returning to work during the pandemic.

Was talking to a neighbour, retired nurse who signed up, and she had some interesting data points:

* The attrition rate is going to be a factor, once a medical worker gets infected they're sent into quarantine so you need to replace them with someone who's not infected. At some point, see "USA", you run out of replacements. This is why keeping medical workers safe is so incredibly important.

* They may pull people currently in med school into service if required. This could lead to a shortage of trained replacements in a few years since the new-graduate rate is tuned to match the retirement rate.

* Some stuff is really difficult to do safely, e.g. for a home visit you need to stay outside the home and do as much as possible on the phone, go in for 15 minutes max, and then change all PPE and clothes before you move to the next home. In other words one set of fresh clothes for each home visited. I wonder if they need donations of clothing to swap through?

As others have pointed out, I'm amazed at the number of people who have responded, particularly since they're in a higher-risk bracket than younger medical people.

frednz

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#2453949 3-Apr-2020 16:56

mattwnz:
rhy7s:

Maybe not a breeding ground as such (being viral rather than bacterial) but I've been out twice for shopping and the mask use I've noticed just seems like keeping a talismanic regularly handled/adjusted/removed salivary concentration sponge on your face. Often removed to talk when at closest proximity to others or to eat finger food. Unless you're in a situation like crowded public transport, it just seems like masks on average would be more often working against their intended purpose.

As everyone is supposed to act like they already have the virus, wouldn't a mask be a benefit if someone coughs, sneezes, or talks and sprays, in catching that virus spray? Apparently it can travel 6-8 feet.

In Asia they are used to wearing them. In NZ we would need an education campaign to the average Joe, on how to wear them. Some people however would know how to put them on, and take them off correctly, esp if they have worked in the medical field

No matter how careful you are, even during lockdown you could still come into contact with the virus, For example, we were on a local walk this afternoon and round the corner came a lady with her pram and she was coughing and looked a bit sick. I suppose we were about 2 metres away from her and she could just have hayfever or an ordinary cold. I'm sure nobody who knows they have the virus and are self isolating would go out for a walk. But, if you just have a cold and are coughing a lot, I don't suppose there's any reason why you shouldn't go for a walk, but perhaps you should just stay home?

neb

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#2453950 3-Apr-2020 16:58

rhy7s:
Maybe not a breeding ground as such (being viral rather than bacterial) but I've been out twice for shopping and the mask use I've noticed just seems like keeping a talismanic regularly handled/adjusted/removed salivary concentration sponge on your face. Often removed to talk when at closest proximity to others or to eat finger food. Unless you're in a situation like crowded public transport, it just seems like masks on average would be more often working against their intended purpose.

There is another good reason for wearing any kind of mask at all, no matter how bad: It trains you to stop touching your face all the time. In this case it's doing nothing to filter out Covid19, but is training you to avoid transferring it to your mouth/nose/eyes.

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#2453951 3-Apr-2020 16:59

THE USE OF MASK and GLOVES

This a more detailed follow-on from an earlier post I made on the 1st March #2429583

The following I have plagiarised from several articles including my own 30 year old nursing library.

COVID-19 is spread mainly in the air in droplet form BUT there is now unverified evidence that it MAY also be spread through atomisation during normal speaking and breathing. This is quite starling if it can be verified. The experts can not agree on this and the science is not clear therefore it comes with a load of caveats.

THE USE OF FACE MASKS

How to put on a face mask
1. Clean your hands with soap and water or hand sanitiser before touching the mask.
2. Remove a mask from the box and make sure there are no obvious tears or holes in either side of the mask.
3. Determine which side of the mask is the top. The side of the mask that has a stiff bendable edge is the top and is meant to mould to the shape of your nose.
4. Determine which side of the mask is the front. The coloured side of the mask is usually the front and should face away from you, while the white side touches your face.
5. Follow the instructions below for the type of mask you are using.
◦ Face Mask with Ear loops: Hold the mask by the ear loops. Place a loop around each ear.
◦ Face Mask with Ties: Bring the mask to your nose level and place the ties over the crown of your head and secure with a bow.
◦ Face Mask with Bands: Hold the mask in your hand with the nosepiece or top of the mask at fingertips, allowing the headbands to hang freely below hands. Bring the mask to your nose level and pull the top strap over your head so that it rests over the crown of your head. Pull the bottom strap over your head so that it rests at the nape of your neck.
6. Mould or pinch the stiff edge to the shape of your nose.
7. If using a face mask with ties: Then take the bottom ties, one in each hand, and secure with a bow at the nape of your neck.
8. Pull the bottom of the mask over your mouth and chin.
9. do not cross over the ties or loops. This squeezes the masks sides open around the cheek

How to remove a face mask
1. Clean your hands with soap and water or hand sanitiser before touching the mask. Avoid touching the front of the mask. The front of the mask is contaminated. Only touch the ear loops/ties/band.Follow the instructions below for the type of mask you are using.
2. Face Mask with Ear loops: Hold both of the ear loops and gently lift and remove the mask.
3. Face Mask with Ties: Untie the bottom bow first then untie the top bow and pull the mask away from you as the ties are loosened.
4. Face Mask with Bands: Lift the bottom strap over your head first then pull the top strap over your head.
5. Throw the mask in the trash. Clean your hands with soap and water or hand sanitiser.

NOTE: Any cloth or paper based mask should be discarded safely and responsibly after use and under no circumstances should it be used for longer than a day. Replace the mask immediately if it is damaged, very moist or soiled.

NOTE: Practice this at home, at length. Learn how to put on the mask, take off the mask, and importantly, how to act while wearing the mask. Any mask that performs serious amounts of filtering can be quite difficult to breathe through, so you need to get used to what it's like to have your breathing impeded for 30, 60, 90 minutes at a time. You also need to find out what you can and can't do while wearing a mask, e.g. engaging in strenuous activity will be a no-no, so you need to calibrate how far you can go at home before you need to apply it in practice. (Thanks to @neb)

THE USE OF GLOVES

The virus that causes COVID-19 is mainly spread from person to person through respiratory droplets when an infected person coughs or sneezes. And that happens when people are within 2 meters of one another. The other way you can get the virus is from contaminated surfaces. So whenever you touch a surface with the virus on it and then touch your mouth, nose or eyes, you’ve possibly exposed yourself to the virus. However, the U.S. Centres for Disease Control says this doesn’t appear to be the main way that the virus is spread. This is dependant on how long the virus has been on the surface and the type of surface. It also, not proven, may depend on climatic conditions at that time.

Gloves = false sense of security?

Thoroughly washing your hands for at least 20 seconds remains the best defence against COVID-19. But when you go to the grocer or supermarket or other public places, you may not have access to soap and water, hand sanitiser or wipes to clean grocery trolleys. That’s why some people are wearing gloves. But wearing gloves can give you a false sense of security. Because the virus adheres well to latex and other types of gloves, if you touch your face at any point, you’ve still potentially exposed yourself to the virus.

Proper glove use is key

Many people don’t know the proper way to take off gloves and can contaminate their hands when taking off gloves. For example, after you take off your left glove with your right gloved hand, your left hand is at that point virus free. But if you take off your right glove by touching the outside of it, you’ve potentially contaminated your left hand.

You need to reach inside your right glove and peel it inside out without touching the outside, which can take some skill.

Not touching anything = No need for gloves

NOTE: Another thing is that if you’re going for a walk and staying at least 2 meters from people, there’s no need to wear gloves—the virus that causes COVID-19 is only absorbed through mucous membranes, not your hands.

NOTE: If you already have gloves and wearing them in highly public places like stores and public transportation helps calm your nerves, go ahead and slide a pair on. Keep in mind that you can only use them once and need to properly take them off and immediately dispose of them. Try not to touch your face with them, and wash your hands after taking them off.

THE USE OF FACE SHIELDS

If you need to wear a face shield then you should not be where you are. Though having said that I noticed that my local pharmacist was wearing one. But he was also 2 meters away from where I was standing.

Thoroughly washing your hands for at least 20 seconds remains the best defence against COVID-19 and staying at home if you have the slightest inkling you may be ill, then you must ensure you phone the COVID-19 health advice and information Healthline team (for free) on 0800 358 5453 or +64 9 358 5453

EDIT: addendum thanks to NEB and little tidy up

Whilst the difficult we can do immediately, the impossible takes a bit longer. However, miracles you will have to wait for.

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DarthKermit

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#2453953 3-Apr-2020 17:01

Hopefully that stupid expression "____ has gone viral." will die out because of the covid virus.

mentalinc

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#2453958 3-Apr-2020 17:04

FineWine:

the virus that causes COVID-19 is only absorbed through mucous membranes, not your hands.

Great post!, does the virus enter the body through cuts on hands etc?

DO you remove the gloves then the mask, or the mask then the gloves? or wash hands between either thing?

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#2453959 3-Apr-2020 17:05

bmt:

Just read through the last 15 or so pages of posts in this thread.

The reaction to dogstar001's posts are over the top and in some cases hysterical. He was not abusive, not trolling, simply presenting a different perspective in a reasoned manner. And then got banned for it.

I fully support the lockdown, think it will last longer than 4 weeks, and reluctantly accept that too. I support the Government and its actions, and happily call out fake news and BS.

Talking about the economic impacts of the lockdown, how it affects different age groups and discussing the pros and cons of the course of action is normal and should be accepted in a functioning democracy. I don't necessarily agree with dogstar001's position but the fact he got banned for having a different opinion which rarked up a select few seemingly older members is an absolute joke.

i think @dogstar001 should be allowed back in if he apologizes, but that's my opinion, public figures & world leaders have been caught saying worse things, and i don't think he had the chance to read the warning before his final post

ie he was warned but i don't think he read the warning before posting another opinion which was much more serious, stuff you read on FB etc.

Fred99

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#2453960 3-Apr-2020 17:05

neb:. In other words is it a type of long-term viral damage that we've been dealing with for centuries, or is Covid19 particularly bad?

It's pretty bad in terms of lung damage. Post-mortem lung tissue samples (obviously of severe cases) apparently look like red goo with no visible structure remaining. Even asymptomatic patients have shown ground-glass opacities, long term damage may not be "life threatening", but they might not be running marathons.

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