EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

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#2058299 18-Jul-2018 12:06

GV27:

Have you every wondered why there's so many Swifts on the market at around $7K and Nissan Leafs are priced around $15K and up? It could do with the amount of money most normal people have to spend on a car when they go to buy one.

Meanwhile, those people keep paying fuel taxes and RUC and people who have the means and lifestyle to make electric cars work for them get...another hand-out.

As someone who drove a $7000 Swift until it died after 18 years and 320,000km and only then replaced it with a Leaf, no, I have not wondered that. I'm completely aware of the economics. That is the entire point of a rebate scheme: to turn that around so that now the $7,000 Swift is $7,500, and the $15,000 EV is $7,000. Do you also wonder how unfair it is that the burden of tobacco taxes seem to land squarely on the shoulders of smokers and nobody else?

And as far as 'lifestyle' goes, I have a 55km each way daily commute, and I can still make an EV "work for me". Even the early-days ones that are currently on the market, let alone the ones with 400km range coming in the next couple of years. And for the times that the Leaf does not "work for me" I still have our other car - a Pajero, which is also 18 years old and has 300,000km on it because I can't afford to replace it with anything better either. I assure you, I'm not god. If I were, I wouldn't be buying a second-hand Leaf.

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tripper1000

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#2058301 18-Jul-2018 12:07

GV27:

Have you every wondered why there's so many Swifts on the market at around $7K and Nissan Leafs are priced around $15K and up? It could do with the amount of money most normal people have to spend on a car when they go to buy one.

Meanwhile, those people keep paying fuel taxes and RUC and people who have the means and lifestyle to make electric cars work for them get...another hand-out.

Nope, it is supply and demand.

More people want used Leafs than there are used Leafs available, so the price goes up to circa $15k.

When there is too much demand for Swifts, people with $7K buy Wish's and Demio's and Vitz's instead, balancing out the supply and demand equation.

There are currently few/no equal or lower priced alternates to 5 y.o used Leaf's, and no competition and no excess of supply leads to higher prices. Subsidies suggested above on new EV will feed more new cars in at the top of the chain, increasing availability and lowing costs further down the chain to all the hard working people who can only afford 5 y.o. used cars.

GV27

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#2058306 18-Jul-2018 12:18

tripper1000:

GV27:

Have you every wondered why there's so many Swifts on the market at around $7K and Nissan Leafs are priced around $15K and up? It could do with the amount of money most normal people have to spend on a car when they go to buy one.

Meanwhile, those people keep paying fuel taxes and RUC and people who have the means and lifestyle to make electric cars work for them get...another hand-out.

Nope, it is supply and demand.

More people want used Leafs than there are used Leafs available, so the price goes up to circa $15k.

When there is too much demand for Swifts, people with $7K buy Wish's and Demio's and Vitz's instead, balancing out the supply and demand equation.

There are currently few/no equal or lower priced alternates to 5 y.o used Leaf's, and no competition and no excess of supply leads to higher prices. Subsidies suggested above on new EV will feed more new cars in at the top of the chain, increasing availability and lowing costs further down the chain to all the hard working people who can only afford 5 y.o. used cars.

No one person can influence the market beyond the funds they have to spare. Everyone is buying and selling in the same market. They're not going to be cranking out any more 2011 - 2017 Leafs for a very obvious reason so supply is what it is, and there are plenty sitting on Trade Me at the moment. I don't think supply is the biggest problem for a first-gen EV with battery issues and an extremely limited range at on the entry level models.

There are plenty of much cheaper alternatives, they're called "every other car".

And if someone can afford a high-end EV, they can afford to pay for it without a Government subsidy.

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#2058318 18-Jul-2018 12:45

GV27:

And if someone can afford a high-end EV, they can afford to pay for it without a Government subsidy.

Well, firstly, nobody is suggesting that only the Jaguars and Porsches will get subsidies when the supermarket EVs won't, but then your hypothetical strugglers buying $7,000 Suzuki Swifts aren't going to be in the market for an ICE Cayenne either.

Assuming by 'high end' you actually mean 'new' instead of second-hand, then your logic still doesn't wash. I might not be able to afford $50K for a new Leaf, but I might be able to afford it if cost the same as an ICE Corolla or Swift. I might not be able to afford a hypothetical $40K new EV Corolla, but I might be able to afford it if it cost $30K instead just like the ICE version does. And if that discount came at the expense of 20 people who decided to buy ICE cars when an EV that would do the job was both available and cheaper, then ... well, I don't know what to suggest. Use your brain and buy the EV?

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GV27

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#2058324 18-Jul-2018 13:12

SaltyNZ:

GV27:

And if someone can afford a high-end EV, they can afford to pay for it without a Government subsidy.

Well, firstly, nobody is suggesting that only the Jaguars and Porsches will get subsidies when the supermarket EVs won't, but then your hypothetical strugglers buying $7,000 Suzuki Swifts aren't going to be in the market for an ICE Cayenne either.

Assuming by 'high end' you actually mean 'new' instead of second-hand, then your logic still doesn't wash. I might not be able to afford $50K for a new Leaf, but I might be able to afford it if cost the same as an ICE Corolla or Swift. I might not be able to afford a hypothetical $40K new EV Corolla, but I might be able to afford it if it cost $30K instead just like the ICE version does. And if that discount came at the expense of 20 people who decided to buy ICE cars when an EV that would do the job was both available and cheaper, then ... well, I don't know what to suggest. Use your brain and buy the EV?

Someone else was advocating that the subsidised premium EVs would 'trickle down'. I'm yet to see a cheap Q7 :P

Look I am 100% onboard with jacking up excises when EVs can compete with cars in terms of capability, but by your own post, an EV works for you because you can also store, run, insure, fuel a petrol vehicle to do what the EV can't. A $7K Leaf can't do what a $7K Swift can.

It'd be like me replacing my 310,000km Corolla with a Leaf - not only is it going to cost me $20K, but I'm also not going to be able to do anywhere as much in it. My Corollla is worth maybe $1,500? So that's $18,500 + the lost functionality, which also has a value.

As you say, technology is going to improve EVs, so why not wait for the price of cars to drop organically, rather than subsidies for vehicles that will still contribute to congestion, etc?

MikeAqua

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#2058325 18-Jul-2018 13:14

tripper1000:

MikeAqua: You also introduce operational headaches around charging. With an ICEV you have booked was left low on fuel by the last user, it's a minor inconvenience to fill it up. With an EV it's a major delay.

I'm sure some people will go out of their way to sabotage company EV's, but there would have been horse fans in 1904 doing the same thing with the model T, and donkey and ox fans doing the same before that to horses - it means there's something wrong with the person, not the technology. Same type of person will likely also economically sabotage the company in other ways such as leaving computers, A/C and lights on overnight.

I've worked at a couple of places that have electric forklifts and electric snorkel lifts. I'm sure some retards purposefully don't plug them in at the end of the day simply because they prefer petrol/diesel and are trying to ensure the battery vehicle fails. (I love electric equipment over diesel because it is so much cleaner and quieter and nicer if you are working indoors or close to it).

There are a bunch of wireless options for EV and I reckon once the world settles on one standard this will become standard on fleet cars. Just by parking it in it's spot it will get recharged, so the special people will have no excuse.

The behaviour is independent of equipment type. Some people just don't think of the next user. Those people will exist regardless of what sort of vehicle you have. But ... the consequences for the next user are higher with an EV than with an ICEV.

That because of two fundamental characteristic of the technology - range and charge time.

Here is a simple scenario. I use an Ioniq to drive a ~200km trip. I return to work and plug it in immediately. I've done everything right. Despite my spotless conduct, the EV is not available for anyone else to use until it has sufficient charge. That complexity needs to be managed within vehicle booking system - not trivial.

Back to forklifts: The users preferred them - cleaner, quieter and easier to use. But ... due to recharge times when we switched from electric to LPG the number of forklifts went up by 50%. Drivers swapped forklifts when they needed charging - much like people used to do with those horses you mentioned.

Mike

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Teeps

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#2058342 18-Jul-2018 14:01

GV27:

It'd be like me replacing my 310,000km Corolla with a Leaf - not only is it going to cost me $20K, but I'm also not going to be able to do anywhere as much in it. My Corollla is worth maybe $1,500? So that's $18,500 + the lost functionality, which also has a value.

This has nothing to do with the value of your current car, this would be an incentive to consider an EV when it comes time to replace it.

Teeps

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#2058345 18-Jul-2018 14:07

MikeAqua:

Here is a simple scenario. I use an Ioniq to drive a ~200km trip. I return to work and plug it in immediately. I've done everything right. Despite my spotless conduct, the EV is not available for anyone else to use until it has sufficient charge. That complexity needs to be managed within vehicle booking system - not trivial.

But those are the situations that it makes sense to use a DC fast charger to get the car back up to 80%, then you can go back to work and plug in for the rest of the charge. This way the car will also be available for someone else to use.

I can't say about your usage, but I would expect you to have the car for a good proportion of the day if you're travelling 200km as well as getting work done so would be less likely that someone else would be needing it for another 200km drive.

MikeAqua

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#2058354 18-Jul-2018 14:39

Teeps:

I can't say about your usage, but I would expect you to have the car for a good proportion of the day if you're travelling 200km as well as getting work done so would be less likely that someone else would be needing it for another 200km drive.

200km round trip for a one hour meeting/site visit would be about 4 hours and half the day left. With an ICEV the vehicle would be immediately available to do something similar (even without a top up). With an EV a charging period is required between users. It's a limitation that doesn't exist with ICEVs.

If I was fleet manager I wouldn't bother with EVs yet. They cost more (cash outlay/finance and depreciation), they do less, they have more complex logistics and they require additional capital for charging infrastructure. The upside is reduced servicing requirements ($ and downtime) and reduced running costs.

When you see Avis, Hertz et al switching to predominantly EV fleets - you will know the technology is there in term of cost and logistics.

Mike

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#2058359 18-Jul-2018 14:57

MikeAqua:

200km round trip for a one hour meeting/site visit would be about 4 hours and half the day left. With an ICEV the vehicle would be immediately available to do something similar (even without a top up). With an EV a charging period is required between users. It's a limitation that doesn't exist with ICEVs.

If I was fleet manager I wouldn't bother with EVs yet. They cost more (cash outlay/finance and depreciation), they do less, they have more complex logistics and they require additional capital for charging infrastructure. The upside is reduced servicing requirements ($ and downtime) and reduced running costs.

When you see Avis, Hertz et al switching to predominantly EV fleets - you will know the technology is there in term of cost and logistics.

Thats a very traditional way of thinking of using a vehicle. The hour meeting at your destination could also be used to charge the vehicle. I also very much doubt that someone else would be getting into the car the second you got back, and even if they did, are they also doing a 200km journey? Does this happen every day?

Yes, I understand that the users mindset needs to take charging into consideration, but these things aren't an impossibility.

I wouldn't use car rental companies as a good gauge on whether an EV is a good purchase for a company or personal user. You only need to look at the vehicles that the use to know they purely go for what they can buy in bulk at the best price. They also wouldn't be able to get away with the horrendous fuel prices for not returning full, which along with the unnecessary insurances they like to try and convince people to add on earns them more money than the rental in the first place!

wellygary

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#2058360 18-Jul-2018 15:04

And.. wait for it, hot off the press here is the Govt EV announcement..... and .... it ...is .....

a back end database....

Associate Transport Minister Julie Anne Genter today launched EVRoam, a new initiative providing electric car drivers with real-time information about where they can find reliable charging stations right around the country.EVRoam is a live database, collated by the NZ Transport Agency from real-time data fed directly from charging station operators such as Chargenet and Vector. EVRoam then shares this information out as widely as possible, to dozens of other websites and apps, so that drivers can receive reliable data on charging stations through all channels.

“This is about giving people the practical tools to confidently drive an electric car right around the country and know they have the power to go the distance,” said Associate Minister of Transport Julie Anne Genter.

“EVRoam lets drivers know if a charging station is active and able to be used, which means they can confidently plan their journeys.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1807/S00147/govt-helping-electric-vehicle-drivers-to-roam-free.htm

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SaltyNZ

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#2058368 18-Jul-2018 15:26

Ah, that's disappointing. Surely someone there has heard of PlugShare...

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Dinga96

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#2058370 18-Jul-2018 15:28

This is probably a well intentioned move on the Govt. part, although if a charging location is down ,you do not have a lot of alternative sites to turn to .When we get more charging sites it will be helpful.

wellygary

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#2058373 18-Jul-2018 15:40

Dinga96:

This is probably a well intentioned move on the Govt. part, although if a charging location is down ,you do not have a lot of alternative sites to turn to .When we get more charging sites it will be helpful.

Yeah but its essentially replicating what already exists... simply for the sake of having a "local" solution.....

Both the Chargenet and plugshare apps give you the current status on chargers.....

MikeAqua

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#2058395 18-Jul-2018 16:31

Teeps:

Thats a very traditional way of thinking of using a vehicle. The hour meeting at your destination could also be used to charge the vehicle. I also very much doubt that someone else would be getting into the car the second you got back, and even if they did, are they also doing a 200km journey? Does this happen every day?

I've never seen an EV charging point at a client's premises

Of course not every car is in high demand every day. But the days they are they need to be working, not charging. You can't have cars that work some days and not others. Fortunately there are cars that can work all day - they are called ICEVs.

Mike

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