Nissan LEAF - General

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Circumspice
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#1980703 20-Mar-2018 20:38

Pluses and minuses both ways. Better reporting by secondary sources of information (like Consumer in this case) always desirable. I'd rather have all the available data as a potential buyer. Getting a 30 kWh Leaf currently involves pretty serious money for many people (~$30k) - flipthefleet data might save some potential buyers from being burned with their first experience of purchasing an EV. If nothing else, I'd suggest potential buyers who really want a Leaf right now get a 'cheap' 24 kWh (from reputable seller!) to tide them over the next few years until dust settles re 30 kWh/ 40 kWh batteries. Unless of course money isn't really an issue...

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#1980707 20-Mar-2018 20:52

paulchinnz:

Pluses and minuses both ways. Better reporting by secondary sources of information (like Consumer in this case) always desirable. I'd rather have all the available data as a potential buyer. Getting a 30 kWh Leaf currently involves pretty serious money for many people (~$30k) - flipthefleet data might save some potential buyers from being burned with their first experience of purchasing an EV. If nothing else, I'd suggest potential buyers who really want a Leaf right now get a 'cheap' 24 kWh (from reputable seller!) to tide them over the next few years until dust settles re 30 kWh/ 40 kWh batteries. Unless of course money isn't really an issue...

But you are already suggesting that people should hold-off from buying a 30 kWh / 40 kWh Leaf when the research is incomplete and the sample isn't even a random sample. To be fair the study acknowledges lots of its limitations, including the fact that the data is based on a convenience sample provided by volunteers, rather than a formal random sample. But does "Consumer" repeat all the limitations of the research?

So doesn't this put car dealers who sell 30 kWh Leafs in a difficult position? Are they obliged to draw customers' attention to this incomplete research which could result in losing sales of vehicles already imported? In fact Consumer says: "However, dealers selling 30kWh Leaf cars after the report became public (16 March) should disclose this potential problem."

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#1980741 20-Mar-2018 22:11

frednz:

But you are already suggesting that people should hold-off from buying a 30 kWh / 40 kWh Leaf when the research is incomplete and the sample isn't even a random sample. To be fair the study acknowledges lots of its limitations, including the fact that the data is based on a convenience sample provided by volunteers, rather than a formal random sample. But does "Consumer" repeat all the limitations of the research?

Not knowing the underlying cause of an observation does not make the research incomplete. The observation stands by itself. Further research is possible to try to understand the chemistry and physics behind the observation but that won't change what was observed.

Yes it is a convenience sample but I have performed numerous checks and it is extremely unlikely that this is leading to the observed results. The ideal would be a random sample to fully validate but that would be almost impossible due to privacy and consent issues.

Also, although the research hasn't been formally peer-reviewed through a standard journal publication process, we had it independently peer reviewed by numerous external reviewers before we released the report (see the acknowledgements).

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#1980779 21-Mar-2018 05:23

A relatively simple way out of this, since the government wants to encourage EVs, would be to require manufacturers to honour battery warranties even for parallel imports. Ultimately that means that Nissan NZ would be charging back those costs to Nissan Japan, but I don’t see that as especially unfair, because that’s where their profits would go if they had sold the vehicles new in NZ, too.

You could even use a carrot and stick approach, and only enforce it for models that were not sold in NZ. In other words, Nissan NZ, you don’t want to deal with warranties for Leafs you didn’t sell because (all these reasons)? Then start selling the Leaf in NZ again!

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#1980807 21-Mar-2018 07:59

Was the research able to differentiate as to UK Imports and Japanese Imports. I have had a 30Kw Leaf since Sept 2016 so could consider it to be one of the first in NZ It is the Tekna model (UK) There is no sign of dropping and bars yet. I have not used Leaf Spy but my last charge shows 195 the GOM The car has now done 40000Kms. Has a mixture of slow and fast Charges. Mainly charged at home through Solar. Interested to know if there are early imports .

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#1980820 21-Mar-2018 08:13

gulfa:

Was the research able to differentiate as to UK Imports and Japanese Imports. I have had a 30Kw Leaf since Sept 2016 so could consider it to be one of the first in NZ It is the Tekna model (UK) There is no sign of dropping and bars yet. I have not used Leaf Spy but my last charge shows 195 the GOM The car has now done 40000Kms. Has a mixture of slow and fast Charges. Mainly charged at home through Solar. Interested to know if there are early imports .

Yes. At a mean population level the 30 kWh Leafs sourced from United Kingdom showed slower initial reported decline than those from Japan, but the rate of reported decline was similar at two years of age.

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#1980824 21-Mar-2018 08:30

I'm waiting for my OBD dongle to arrive. My car has 14,000 km on it, and the top bar comes and goes. Some mornings when I turn it on, the bar is off, but then it comes on again after a few minutes. There's no correlation with fast charging which I do maybe once a week anyway. To be fair, it was reported as 92% SOH by Leafspy when I bought it so that is not a totally unexpected thing to happen when it's borderline, but it will be interesting to see what longer term reporting shows up.

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#1980926 21-Mar-2018 10:53

My 30kWh 2016 Leaf was bought through an Auckland dealer at a Japanese auction site in August 2017 and I received it in October. The odo reading was 14,500km as verified by the AA, the car was in fine visual condition throughout, and had 12 bars battery storage capacity. At this stage I was ignorant of dongles, Leafspies, and so on. And I still don't really want to be bothered with such. My aim in the purchase was to replace an ageing Nissan Pulsar kept in immaculate condition with a vehicle that would provide lower fuel and maintenance costs and fewer potential worries in retirement.

In January, after having travelled 2,200 km in the Leaf around town, bringing the odo up to 16,700 km, and getting estimated distances of around 165 to 175 km per 100% charge, I counted the storage capacity bars and found that there were only 11 of the original 12. All the tables and comments I could find indicated the car was undergoing exceptional battery capacity loss. For example, an online battery-capacity-loss chart (US) showed a Nissan warranty table which pointed to Bar 1 loss occurring at 27 months and 28,125 miles (45,263 km). This meant our car should have been expected to travel another 28,563 km (or at least another three more months or so if you base it on time/aging alone) before losing 15% of its battery capacity.

I visited the dealer who had imported the car for me and he did a Leafspy check which reported AHr=62.06, SOH=78%378.02V, Hx=76.78%, odo=16,800km 100QCs and 179 L1/L2s

The work being done by Flip the Fleet on 30kWh battery degradation, and the media publicity given it by Consumer, Radio New Zealand and others, will surely be much appreciated by a previously unsuspecting NZ car-buying public.

Also to be noted is this update by Peter Griffin at the Noted NZ website:

"Nissan's New Zealand managing director, John Manley, did not respond to requests for comment by deadline, but sent a statement after the story was published:

“ 'Nissan is proud to be an innovator in electric vehicles - with more than 300,000 LEAF vehicles on the road - the most EVs of any manufacturer, completing more than four billion zero-emission kilometres worldwide.

" 'We are aware of the alleged findings and are conducting a thorough internal investigation.'”

Peter Griffin also quotes Paul Smith, Consumer New Zealand's head of testing:

"For buyers who made it clear the extra range of the 30kWh was a key factor at the time of purchase, the Consumer Guarantees Act case is even stronger. The act states goods must be fit for a particular purpose that you asked about.

"If your vehicle’s affected, you can go back to the dealer who sold the car (also likely to be the importer) and ask for a remedy."

Smith says if the problem can't be fixed, owners could claim compensation for any drop in value, or even reject the car for a refund. Personally, I would not want to have to tackle my dealer this way. Nor do I think he should be held responsible for Nissan problems. I like a quiet life without dramas, which is why I upgraded to an EV model with an apparently good record.

I would like to see a fuller, practical response in due course from Nissan once they have completed their "thorough internal investigation". If a fault in the manufacture of a batch of batteries is found, this could include the shipping and installing of replacement batteries, perhaps by expert technicians brought from Japan on a short-term contract to carry out the remedial work under a general recall. This would be a cheaper solution than quoted bills for returning and correcting each faulty vehicle in Japan.

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#1980928 21-Mar-2018 10:59

SaltyNZ: A relatively simple way out of this, since the government wants to encourage EVs, would be to require manufacturers to honour battery warranties even for parallel imports. Ultimately that means that Nissan NZ would be charging back those costs to Nissan Japan, but I don’t see that as especially unfair, because that’s where their profits would go if they had sold the vehicles new in NZ, too.

You could even use a carrot and stick approach, and only enforce it for models that were not sold in NZ. In other words, Nissan NZ, you don’t want to deal with warranties for Leafs you didn’t sell because (all these reasons)? Then start selling the Leaf in NZ again!

Nissan has already banned new replacement battery exports to NZ, what would their response be to that kind of law?

happyfunball

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#1980929 21-Mar-2018 11:02

SaltyNZ:

I'm waiting for my OBD dongle to arrive. My car has 14,000 km on it, and the top bar comes and goes. Some mornings when I turn it on, the bar is off, but then it comes on again after a few minutes. There's no correlation with fast charging which I do maybe once a week anyway. To be fair, it was reported as 92% SOH by Leafspy when I bought it so that is not a totally unexpected thing to happen when it's borderline, but it will be interesting to see what longer term reporting shows up.

I lost my bar at 82% so you are probably around there now. We can assume you have a 2016 model 30kwh, built in early 2016 or late 2015?

leaflearner

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#1980939 21-Mar-2018 11:18

"Nissan has already banned new replacement battery exports to NZ, what would their response be to that kind of law?"

See John Manley's response on the 30kWh battery problem which I made a few moments before happyfunball posted his reply on this topic. I suspect Nissan will be keeping us waiting a while. I wrote for advice from an official Nissan NZ dealership in January. Their manager said: "I will forward your email to our service/technical department as I do not have the specific knowledge to address your concerns appropriately. They will come back to you regarding your concerns." The service/technical department have failed to "come back" to me in any way whatsoever. Total silence!!

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happyfunball

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#1980940 21-Mar-2018 11:25

leaflearner:

The service/technical department have failed to "come back" to me in any way whatsoever. Total silence!!

What city/dealership did you contact? I'm having my battery tested by Nissan Wellington (Gazley dealership) next week. I'll be sure to discuss this issue with them.

leaflearner

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#1980948 21-Mar-2018 11:46

Hi, happyfunball. The dealership was City Nissan, Takapuna, Auckland, from whom I purchased my Pulsar many years ago but who were, of course, unable to help me to upgrade to an EV. For this I had to work through an independent registered dealer. Please let us all know what Nissan Wellington (Gazley) are able to find. I suspect there are regrets all round about this situation. You have to sympathize somewhat with Nissan NZ's approach in abandoning EVs. They couldn't compete on price with late-model Leaf imports, those cars' original purchase prices having been subsidised, I understand, by governments willing to support EV adoption in a way not countenanced by NZ Government.

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#1980954 21-Mar-2018 12:01

happyfunball:

We can assume you have a 2016 model 30kwh, built in early 2016 or late 2015?

Yes, 2016 model built late 2015. In regards to Nissan's response to such a law, I guess it would be the same as anyone's response to a law that forces them to do something they don't like: comply, or pay the fines.

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happyfunball

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#1981007 21-Mar-2018 14:18

zenourn:

Yes. At a mean population level the 30 kWh Leafs sourced from United Kingdom showed slower initial reported decline than those from Japan, but the rate of reported decline was similar at two years of age.

Is the colour of the car included in the survey? I realise this could sound far fetched, but the reason I ask is that a black Leaf with a dark interior parked outside in the sun will get significantly hotter than a white leaf with a light interior. My car is black on black, and parked in the sun, windows open and sunshade installed, its still oven hot. The other day I parked next to a white Leaf with beige interior and it was barely warm to the touch.

If temperature is a factor in degradation would we could see a correlation between the colour of the car and the SOH?

Its also relatively easy to ask for this information and apply it to your existing data if you agree it may be relevant.

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