Nissan LEAF - General

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#1983745 26-Mar-2018 19:19

Hi KiwiME. Your thought process is very similar to mine. However, in the preliminary dyno testing that zenourn was referring to the dyno wasn't in constant speed mode, it was in constant load just like you suggested but it still didn't play nicely with cruise control. Also, all S models and some others don't have cruise control, so this issue has been resolved with a mechanical adjustable foot which is fairly basic but works very nicely.

Regarding measuring the HV battery current at a set speed (on a flat road with no wind) to account for the internal current sensor calibration error between cars, that was also tried but found to be less than ideal. You think a road is dead flat until you get quite different readings repeatedly in each direction :) You could average that as you suggested, but it still didn't seem like the best option.

Our latest method involves tapping into the HV battery with a series wire loop in a safely modified service disconnect switch and a calibrated current clamp. Controlled discharge is being done at C/3 as per the current AESC spec (manufacturer of the cells). Further testing today is looking really promising. We're making a batch of the modified service disconnect switches and planning to make our test method freely available so that others can test in the same way and get comparable results. However, before doing this we want to share our draft of the test procedure with interested peers for their review. We've got a list of obvious people from around NZ including Ruki on this forum, but if you would like to be included then please email enquiries@evsenhanced.com .

gulfa

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#1984346 27-Mar-2018 15:21

https://www.automotiveworld.com/news-releases/nissan-starts-exchange-program-nissan-leaf-batteries-japan/

An interesting development About 4000 nz dollars

happyfunball

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#1984352 27-Mar-2018 15:28

gulfa:

https://www.automotiveworld.com/news-releases/nissan-starts-exchange-program-nissan-leaf-batteries-japan/

An interesting development About 4000 nz dollars

It would be great if you could buy the refurbished batteries, then there would be some uptake here I think. Alternately you could ship your battery to them but it would take months. :(

wellygary

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#1984358 27-Mar-2018 15:37

happyfunball:

gulfa:

https://www.automotiveworld.com/news-releases/nissan-starts-exchange-program-nissan-leaf-batteries-japan/

An interesting development About 4000 nz dollars

It would be great if you could buy the refurbished batteries, then there would be some uptake here I think. Alternately you could ship your battery to them but it would take months. :(

I'm guessing that they would have less performance than a new battery ( given its half he price)

Presumably they are rebuilding the battery packs by replacing cells that have failed, so you have a mix of new and old cells??

Linuxluver

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#1984803 28-Mar-2018 11:03

wellygary:

happyfunball:

gulfa:

https://www.automotiveworld.com/news-releases/nissan-starts-exchange-program-nissan-leaf-batteries-japan/

An interesting development About 4000 nz dollars

It would be great if you could buy the refurbished batteries, then there would be some uptake here I think. Alternately you could ship your battery to them but it would take months. :(

I'm guessing that they would have less performance than a new battery ( given its half he price)

Presumably they are rebuilding the battery packs by replacing cells that have failed, so you have a mix of new and old cells??

I haven't seen any information on the expected performance. Would be good to know.

Not supporting their batteries is hurting Nissan. You don't really care about the battery state if you can roll in and get a new one. Even if it's a few thousand, you save so much on petrol and overall maintenance it still pays for itself if done every 3-5 years. Not everyone would need it. Just the people who drive their cars harder than the design was intended.

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MikeB4

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#1984813 28-Mar-2018 11:15

I am currently in the process of looking for a replacement vehicle for our Nissan X-Trail, I have looked at a few Leafs but have one over whelming feeling, why are all the dealers selling these things in NZ and especially Wellington such tossers. The result is I am unlikely to buy one. This leaves the Hyundai which is just too tricky for me to get in and out. I guess it will be a few years before I buy an EV.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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Dulouz

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#1984825 28-Mar-2018 11:24

@MikeB4 Myles from Cooper Auto seemed good to deal with - http://cooperauto.co.nz/listings/nissan-leaf-x-gen-2-24kwh-2016/,

Amanon

Linuxluver

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#1984858 28-Mar-2018 12:28

MikeB4:

I am currently in the process of looking for a replacement vehicle for our Nissan X-Trail, I have looked at a few Leafs but have one over whelming feeling, why are all the dealers selling these things in NZ and especially Wellington such tossers. The result is I am unlikely to buy one. This leaves the Hyundai which is just too tricky for me to get in and out. I guess it will be a few years before I buy an EV.

Define "tossers"? I'm sure there are some. It kind of goes with the territory for car sales. (Sorry.... car sales people......but it's true - with notable exceptions).

There are lots of good people out there selling EVs......

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gulfa

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#1985056 28-Mar-2018 17:14

Finally got around to using Leaf Spy on My 2016 30kw Leaf. Bit of a surprise the number of fast chargers and the SOH No way could I have done the number suggested. The SOH is at 83% but I am stil getting around 190 + around Town and around 170+ on trips. I am still showing 12 bars Any suggestions welcome (Struggling to upload the image)

MikeB4

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#1985109 28-Mar-2018 19:40

Linuxluver:

MikeB4:

I am currently in the process of looking for a replacement vehicle for our Nissan X-Trail, I have looked at a few Leafs but have one over whelming feeling, why are all the dealers selling these things in NZ and especially Wellington such tossers. The result is I am unlikely to buy one. This leaves the Hyundai which is just too tricky for me to get in and out. I guess it will be a few years before I buy an EV.

Define "tossers"? I'm sure there are some. It kind of goes with the territory for car sales. (Sorry.... car sales people......but it's true - with notable exceptions).

There are lots of good people out there selling EVs......

An example one of the biggest dealers down here is Gazely Motors. The staff there are terrible, dodgy and seem to lack knowledge of their product. I would trust Del Boy or Arthur Daley more than those guys.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

frednz

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#1985145 28-Mar-2018 21:06

There is now another article in the Listener about the 30 kWh Nissan Leaf battery problems:

How citizen scientists revealed an electric vehicle problem

There is some interesting reading here, particularly about the 30 kWh Leaf of Dave Hawkins which he bought for $26,000 from a Christchurch dealer with a SOH of 97%. Within a few days this had dropped to 94% and fairly rapidly over the next month it was past 90%. In this case, the dealer opted to give Dave his money back in full and he bought a BMW i3 in its place.

There is also an interesting story about 30 kWh Leaf owner Rob McColl. His battery's State of Health showed 91% when he looked at the car on the Coventry Cars sales yard, but within a few weeks and now in McColl’s ownership, it had dropped to 79%.

There is also some interesting discussion in this article about battery replacement problems and why caution is needed in interpreting SOH battery data.

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zenourn

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#1985153 28-Mar-2018 21:18

frednz:

There is now another article in the Listener about the 30 kWh Nissan Leaf battery problems:

How citizen scientists revealed an electric vehicle problem

I think Peter Griffin has put together an excellent article. There is also a PDF version of the published article available at:

http://flipthefleet.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/The-Listener-31-March-2018-cover-and-p14-p21.pdf

SaltyNZ

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#1985158 28-Mar-2018 21:26

Good to see that representatives from government were involved in the meeting, according to the article. They should consider holding Nissan to their own 5-year standard. I'm aware Nissan NZ don't sell the Leaf, but I don't see that as fatal flaw: if it costs them money to deal with the batteries they can charge it back to Nissan Japan, just like they send back the profits from cars they sell here.

The caution on interpretation of SoH battery data is worth noting, except the SoH data comes from Nissan's equipment, it's not made up by LeafSpy. It's possible that the problem is not the battery, but the battery management system. Either way, if the BMS thinks you can only put 24kWh into your actually-perfectly-ok 30kWh battery, you only got 24kWh in your battery.

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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

frednz

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#1985161 28-Mar-2018 21:28

zenourn:

frednz:

There is now another article in the Listener about the 30 kWh Nissan Leaf battery problems:

How citizen scientists revealed an electric vehicle problem

I think Peter Griffin has put together an excellent article. There is also a PDF version of the published article available at:

http://flipthefleet.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/The-Listener-31-March-2018-cover-and-p14-p21.pdf

I found this extract from the article to be very interesting:

As a trusted name in the EV market, Blue Cars’ Alexander was approached early with the Flip the Fleet findings. He says caution is needed, as the sole measure in the study is the State of Health data. “We are presuming that because these batteries are appearing to lose capacity, that it’s affecting the range of the cars. There’s room for more work to establish that it is a real number,” he says. “Nissan are probably the only ones that know what the algorithms in that software do.”

Chelsea Sexton is also taking a wait-and-see approach while Nissan’s engineers run their own data from the tens of thousands of 30kWh Leafs around the world that regularly send information back to the firm.

Is it satisfactory to just use SOH data as the sole measure in the study?

zenourn

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#1985189 28-Mar-2018 22:21

frednz:

I found this extract from the article to be very interesting:

As a trusted name in the EV market, Blue Cars’ Alexander was approached early with the Flip the Fleet findings. He says caution is needed, as the sole measure in the study is the State of Health data. “We are presuming that because these batteries are appearing to lose capacity, that it’s affecting the range of the cars. There’s room for more work to establish that it is a real number,” he says. “Nissan are probably the only ones that know what the algorithms in that software do.”

Chelsea Sexton is also taking a wait-and-see approach while Nissan’s engineers run their own data from the tens of thousands of 30kWh Leafs around the world that regularly send information back to the firm.

Is it satisfactory to just use SOH data as the sole measure in the study?

Yes. SoH by design is a value calculated by the BMS to estimate the energy holding capacity of the battery compared to the ideal state. There is no scientific evidence that SoH does not have a strong correlation with battery capacity. Hence there is no evidence that it is not satisfactory.

The SoH value is used in calculation of the dashboard battery capacity bars. This is then used for warranty claims in countries where it applies. So it would be very strange to have it hugely under representing battery capacity.

See also our reply to comment 3 at https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/201803.0122/v1

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