Nissan LEAF - General

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#1985191 28-Mar-2018 22:38

EVsEnhanced:

..... Our latest method involves tapping into the HV battery with a series wire loop in a safely modified service disconnect switch and a calibrated current clamp. ...

Service Plug area is not a consumer-oriented solution. Those who have no clue about lethal effect of High Voltage and DC should not try that at home...

It is doable to "tap into" few areas with my Analyser (DC sensors are calibrated) and do the real life test by measuring capacity during road trip. But you could just drive and measure the range the car could go without all those extra efforts..

Capacity could be of interest when you buy or sell the pack as a product not attached to the car (i.e. indicative of the possible range).

What we would like to know apart from Usable Remaining Capacity (URC) of entire pack - is individual module capacity being measured/tested under the same conditions. That would be good to know at the point when you make a decision to buy that second hand/or rebuild pack.

But if you already got the pack - you can just attach it to the Leaf, reprogram VCM for it to accept LBC and drive the car - you's see the range and use LeafSpy if you wish... it is easier and faster then testing that pack for capacity in the Lab..

If there is a demand in the future - I may look into offering that "quick reprogramming" using dealership scanner in Auckland, but there is no demand right now.

My concern with sourcing second hand batteries in general and existing re-builders in Japan and New Zealand is:

- Unfortunately it is not that easy (not fast/ not cheap) to open pack in Leaf and check serial numbers (as I do in hybrids) to see if they have been swapped. Capacity is good to know but I would like to know date of manufacture as well!

- Second hand packs are very rarely accompanied with reliable data (genuine or rebuild, real ODO, real date of manufacture...)

P.S. Huge pile of Hybrid Failed Battery Packs I have tested lately ~10% were genuine, ~90% - already rebuilt by somebody else. Observed mixture of modules from different years and different state of degradation :-(

Same is happening with EV batteries already in NZ - there are people who are already doing swaps of modules.

Toyota / Lexus Hybrid and EV Battery Expert Battery Test & Repair

Elliemay

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Geek
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#1985223 29-Mar-2018 07:44

gulfa:

Finally got around to using Leaf Spy on My 2016 30kw Leaf. Bit of a surprise the number of fast chargers and the SOH No way could I have done the number suggested. The SOH is at 83% but I am stil getting around 190 + around Town and around 170+ on trips. I am still showing 12 bars Any suggestions welcome (Struggling to upload the image)

Actual range, or GOM? Or a combination?

gulfa

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#1985233 29-Mar-2018 08:12

Actual

Cheers

Elliemay

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Geek
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#1985236 29-Mar-2018 08:24

gulfa:

Actual

Cheers

Thanks!

SaltyNZ

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#1985890 30-Mar-2018 12:02

I watched Ready Player One yesterday with the kids. Mild spoiler alert: the bad guys lose. When they were being shoved into a police car and driven off, you see the rear quarter in profile. I thought to myself, 'Hey ... that's a Leaf!' (An antique Leaf surely, by 2045!). Then I saw this photo today on Reddit:

Antique Police Leaf

So there you go folks, proof they last 30 years.

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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

RUKI

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#1986699 1-Apr-2018 11:32

Asking Leaf Battery DIY-ers to provide quality photo of the Leaf modules QR Code & Serial with photo of the Leaf VIN and Frame Number with indication of the Market (UK, JDM) that battery was taken out with indication of the Car Year (for cross-verification with VIN decoding). Info has to be complete. Do not send just photo of the module if you do not have that car VIN.

I do not have enough data from Leaf modules' serials. Just quick analysis of decoding QR from the Leaf Battery and VIN boys are working on overseas - give indication that the car was made in USA in 2014 but (assuming one of the possible coding methods) Battery Modules Could've been manufactured in 2011. Place (plant of manufacture is unknown yet but code of individual cells inside module is readable by my scanner).

As the end result - to be able to tell if the modules are from the same batch and when and where they have been manufactured.

Same process when I test in 30 Seconds that Toyota/Lexus pack has a mixture of modules (lately - saw mix of 2004 to 2011 in many packs and only couple of 2013 Toyota Prius Packs were genuine)

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EVsEnhanced

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Geek
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#1986745 1-Apr-2018 12:25

RUKI:

As the end result - to be able to tell if the modules are from the same batch and when and where they have been manufactured.

On all of the Leaf modules, the module's serial number printed next to the QR code actually contains the build date down to the day. It is a very simple code - you just need to know how to interpret it. It turns of that the battery pack serial number uses exactly the same code too.

The first two characters are always digits and are the year - i.e 15 for 2015.

The third character is the month. 1-9 represents Jan-Sept and A-C represents Oct-Dec. You wont find anything higher than C for this character.

The fourth character is the day. 1-9 represents the 1st to the 9th and A-Y represents 10th-31st with a few characters of alphabet omitted (like with a VIN#)

The remaining six characters of the serial number are just the sequential build number.

So, there is no need to use the QR code to identify when they have been manufactured, but proving where they were manufactured could be interesting. I have reason to believe that all of the modules in 30kWh battery modules were made in the USA and then shipped as modules to UK or Japan to be assembled into packs. But it would be great if you could could prove or disprove this using the QR code. I have pictures of 30kWh modules from both UK and JDM cars if you want to see what info you can get out of them. Email me at enquiries@evsenhanced.com if you want them.

RUKI

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#1987072 2-Apr-2018 09:41

EVsEnhanced:

..... So, there is no need to use the QR code to identify when they have been manufactured, but proving where they were manufactured could be interesting. I have reason to believe that all of the modules in 30kWh battery modules were made in the USA and then shipped as modules to UK or Japan to be assembled into packs. But it would be great if you could could prove or disprove this using the QR code. I have pictures of 30kWh modules from both UK and JDM cars if you want to see what info you can get out of them. Email me ... if you want them.

Ok, thanks. Please email photos with info which are from UK which from JDM (to the email you know). I was also promised photos from USA cells from inside - perhaps that will give us a bigger picture for analysis.

Using QR code make huge sense for the purpose of "making process more efficient and productive" (my motto). i.e. looking at serials of all modules in the pack and trying to memorize and analyze them in your head is perhaps for somebody with a spy type memory, but for the Bill and Neil that would be mission impossible.

My tool use QR code, I can scan many modules in a few seconds (e.g. some Lexus Hybrid have 40 modules in the pack) and tell if they are from the same manufacture date or not. It displays individual manufacture dates and production batch on the screen and pops up the reference to previous test results of the modules in the tested pack if I have already been dealing with those before. E.g. someone brought me the 28 modules Prius Pack pack and my scanner tool have identified in 30 seconds that it was a mix of various year modules and few of those I have already tested before in two independent tests. I.e. somebody had already swapped around modules in 3 packs!

Secondly QR code which I have decoded from one USA Leaf has serials of 4 cells inside the module. If someone offer you a module and have swapped cells inside that modules - that can be also checked quickly on condition that individual cells have some sort of coding embedded. If anybody has photos of those - please advise.

Markings of individual cells (embedded into QR code) have 7 letters and could point at the assembly plant ID. No info about that yet.

P.S. Latest info received yesterday from the Nissan Dealership Tech overseas - who is dealing with USA Imported Leafs. He is seeing few 30kWh batteries degradation. But they use Consult 3+ Dealership Scanner at work and it does not have those SOH, Hx, AHr metrics! Hence all those claims about degradation based on LeafSpy non-official metrics won't be accepted by the officials. Nissan did not make promises based on non-official measurements. If somebody remember what Nissan had warranted for Leaf in different countries and based on what - please post. Will be good to compare with what they are going to introduce when start selling NZ new.

Toyota / Lexus Hybrid and EV Battery Expert Battery Test & Repair

EVsEnhanced

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Geek
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#1987275 2-Apr-2018 19:30

Pictures emailed to you Ruki. Hopefully you can find some interesting information in them. Please let me know if you do.

Nissan's warranty on the 30kWh and 40kWh battery is simply based on the number of capacity bars on the instrument cluster lost - if you drop to 8 bars in 8 years or 160,000kms then they will replace it. So a you don't actually need to use any scan tools whatsoever to verify a warranty replacement. The concern is that Nissan can easily adjust the point where bars drop and it appears they have done so on various BMS firmware versions.

It also looks that Nissan has intentionally made it difficult for their own technicians to verify capacity lost with their diagnostics tools, but there are a few ways for this to be done in a way that would be hard for Nissan to ignore.

SoH is actually one of Nissan's own parameters and it is accessible, but not in an obvious way. However, I believe that the best way for a Nissan dealer to check battery degradation on a car is to look at just two parameters in Consult 3+ from the EV/HEV module after the car has been fully charged. These are 'HV BATT LEVEL' and 'HV BATT LEVEL %'

HV BATT LEVEL % is the state of charge. When fully charged this should read around 97.5% regardless of the battery condition. The only point of showing this is to demonstrate that the battery is fully charged at the time. The car wont let you charge all the way to 100%.

HV BATT LEVEL is a measure of the number of Wh estimated as being stored in the battery at any time. This goes up and down with state of charge, but a lower value when the car is fully charged clearly indicates a more degraded battery. If you check this on a brand new 30kWh car at full charge then you will see approx 29,000Wh. On a car with a degraded battery it will read lower on a full charge. If a car has 82% SOH you would expect to see a number around 23780Wh when the car is fully charged. This effectively demonstrates SoH without using the term SoH and with parameters that Nissan allows their technicians to see.

happyfunball

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#1988286 4-Apr-2018 16:28

gulfa:

Finally got around to using Leaf Spy on My 2016 30kw Leaf. Bit of a surprise the number of fast chargers and the SOH No way could I have done the number suggested. The SOH is at 83% but I am stil getting around 190 + around Town and around 170+ on trips. I am still showing 12 bars Any suggestions welcome (Struggling to upload the image)

We lost a bar at 82%, and noticed a corresponding drop in range. :(

I would suggest you consider the CGA and talk to your dealer about getting some cash back. Your resale value has just took a nose-dive :(

https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles/nissan-leafs-not-going-the-distance

gulfa

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#1988310 4-Apr-2018 17:11

Thanks for the comments Another test today after a home charge after a reasonably quick trip back from Waihi back to 84,35% on SOH

Gom only showing 158Kms but after driving around 15 kms Gom is showing 165. I am wondering whether the Leaf spy software ( free version) has discrepancies

I am thinking of getting the pro version. I am concerned a bit but with all the chargers around the Waikato Auckland areas It only means another stop and charge.

Not travelling longer distances as much now.

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GV27

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#1988479 5-Apr-2018 07:11

Looks like anything in the affordable range atm for me ($10k - $15k) is already down to six or seven bars. A refurb programme here would really be quite handy.

SaltyNZ

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#1988482 5-Apr-2018 07:20

gulfa:

Thanks for the comments Another test today after a home charge after a reasonably quick trip back from Waihi back to 84,35% on SOH

Gom only showing 158Kms but after driving around 15 kms Gom is showing 165. I am wondering whether the Leaf spy software ( free version) has discrepancies

I am thinking of getting the pro version. I am concerned a bit but with all the chargers around the Waikato Auckland areas It only means another stop and charge.

Not travelling longer distances as much now.

The Leaf Spy software simply reports what the BMS tells it. It is possible that the BMS is buggy and (for example) overly sensitive to some internal parameter it is measuring. But that only matters when it comes down to how to fix it - if it's a software bug it could be fixed by a software update. In the meantime, if the BMS thinks your 30kWh battery can only safely store 24kWh then that's all it will let you put in it so the practical effect is the same either way.

I don't think you'll notice any difference in going to Pro, either. It's the same software, just that some of the nicer features are disabled in the Lite version. FWIW I have the Pro version too, but mainly because it can log to Dropbox which saves me manually copying log files.

You will also find your SoH goes both down and up by anything up to about 5% depending on your recent history. The first LeafSpy measurement I did on mine - bearing in mind that I also see my top bar come and go - was 78% and the last one was 81%.

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SaltyNZ

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#1988484 5-Apr-2018 07:27

GV27:

A refurb programme here would really be quite handy.

Yes. Yes it would. It's almost like there are people out there waving cash at Nissan, who refuse to accept it because reasons.

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happyfunball

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#1988489 5-Apr-2018 07:38

gulfa:

Gom only showing 158Kms but after driving around 15 kms Gom is showing 165. I am wondering whether the Leaf spy software ( free version) has discrepancies

Leafspy reports the CANBus values it reads, like any other car code reader. Its not a calculated value so no other version, or other software, would make any difference. You can trust Leafspy to provide a window into what the cars computers are thinking, but thats about it.

I'm more concerned with how rapid this degradation is, I think these batteries are just going to get worse quickly leaving NZ owners with no recourse except the CGA.

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