VW - busted!

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MikeB4

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#1404089 12-Oct-2015 08:14

pdath:

Anyone who gets their ECU 'chipped' or has modified software installed is also gaming the system and likely causing greater emissions than their vehicle would have produced at the factory. In order to totally clamp down on this way of evading the rules, Govt. would need to insist on some sort of ECU verification process during a WOF. Can anyone really see that happening, especially in country garages that don't even have a dyno or any electronic testing gear at all, like my local mechanic?

VW have already written me a letter stating that "VW in Germany is working at full speed on a technical solution so that this issue can be fixed". No thanks Tom, I will leave my ECU as is. If some kind of forced recall process is put in place, it's easy enough to get the ECU modified afterwards, so back to square one...

In California, where this all rolled out, it is already illegal to "chip" or "modify" your ECU, unless that chip or ECU is already certified.

I hope that regulation NEVER comes into force in NZ. I like the idea of being able to adjust the parameters of my vehicle - much more than I care about the emissions.

California seems to have taken the more extreme position of the state telling the people how to live their lives. We live in a free country. We should be free to go about our own lives and make our own decisions, free from interference from the state - with the exception of major issues of public safety. I don't consider ECU modifications and "chipping" to be major issues of public safety.

Pollution and climate change are very very much a public safety issue.

Fred99

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#1404099 12-Oct-2015 08:49

pdath:

Anyone who gets their ECU 'chipped' or has modified software installed is also gaming the system and likely causing greater emissions than their vehicle would have produced at the factory. In order to totally clamp down on this way of evading the rules, Govt. would need to insist on some sort of ECU verification process during a WOF. Can anyone really see that happening, especially in country garages that don't even have a dyno or any electronic testing gear at all, like my local mechanic?

VW have already written me a letter stating that "VW in Germany is working at full speed on a technical solution so that this issue can be fixed". No thanks Tom, I will leave my ECU as is. If some kind of forced recall process is put in place, it's easy enough to get the ECU modified afterwards, so back to square one...

In California, where this all rolled out, it is already illegal to "chip" or "modify" your ECU, unless that chip or ECU is already certified.

I hope that regulation NEVER comes into force in NZ. I like the idea of being able to adjust the parameters of my vehicle - much more than I care about the emissions.

California seems to have taken the more extreme position of the state telling the people how to live their lives. We live in a free country. We should be free to go about our own lives and make our own decisions, free from interference from the state - with the exception of major issues of public safety. I don't consider ECU modifications and "chipping" to be major issues of public safety.

Pollution is a major issue of public safety. Vehicle emissions have already been identified as #1 contributor to poor air quality in NZ.
"Chipping" and ECU modification or other modification which interferes with operation of emission control and without testing to ensure that the vehicle still complies is probably illegal in NZ anyway.
Depending on the (ECU) modification, LVV certification could be required anyway regardless of the fact that if it interferes with emissions (almost certainly) then emissions testing/certification is required. 20% power increase from "chipping" is often easily achieved from chipping, and in any case ECU "chipping" of any turbocharged vehicle automatically requires LVV certification. I expect most "chipped" cars on NZ roads aren't legal.

The laws are already there in place - so it's too late to "hope that the regulation never comes into force in NZ" - it's already here on paper. They might not be policed/enforced effectively at the moment, but I expect that'll probably change. It would be a big PITA to many people if emissions testing similar to that in California was brought in. It could happen.
You can probably thank VW for drawing attention to how easy it is to cheat the system. Don't shoot me for telling you this - I like cars too.

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#1404403 12-Oct-2015 14:46

EU bank chief 'could recall VW loans'

Werner Hoyer stated that the EIB gave loans to the German carmaker for things like the development of low emissions engines.

He said they could be recalled in the wake of VW's emissions cheating.

... about €1.8bn (£1.3bn) of those loans are still outstanding.

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dafman

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#1404488 12-Oct-2015 16:22

This from the Guardian. Great car, but article highlights the real perception issue VW are now facing ...

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/oct/11/volkswagen-golf-gte-car-review-martin-love?CMP=twt_a-technology_b-gdntech

jarledb

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#1404534 12-Oct-2015 17:31

dafman: This from the Guardian. Great car, but article highlights the real perception issue VW are now facing ...

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/oct/11/volkswagen-golf-gte-car-review-martin-love?CMP=twt_a-technology_b-gdntech

They claim its as clean as it gets. But thats wrong. The e-Golf would be as clean as it gets - fully electric. Most sold electric car in Norway at the moment.

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Coil

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#1404692 12-Oct-2015 21:58

Fred99:

Hmm, My car is re flashed and makes more power and pollution!!

But i dont have a LVV.

Meh, How will they ever know.

Fred99

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#1404784 13-Oct-2015 08:58

TimA:

Hmm, My car is re flashed and makes more power and pollution!!

But i dont have a LVV.

Meh, How will they ever know.

It's a modified Audi V8 isn't it - but what year?
It might be okay (exempt) for emissions anyway, depending on when it was first registered in NZ. If you use it on the track as well as the road, you might be able to get motorsport exemption anyway.
As far as power output goes, then they don't have an easy way to know. However if you did have a serious prang on the road, I expect they'd take a hard look at any obvious modifications. They might not be able to easily see if the ECU was flashed, but they would quite easily see if it had been de-catted, larger injectors etc. some kind of piggyback engine management device or aftermarket ECU.

I wouldn't underestimate how, if sufficiently motivated, they could implement new draconian laws, enforced "with discretion". Example being "no cruise" bylaws, where granny can drive up and down a road a few times in her Daihatsu for whatever reason and be left alone when committing a technical offense, but if someone does the same in a metallic lime green lowered KA Corolla, they'll get pulled over and probably done over / checked thoroughly. In this case "discretion" means "if they don't like you".

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Fred99

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#1419478 3-Nov-2015 08:52

US EPA has filed a second set of charges against VAG.
"The agency also added a new engine -- the 3.0-liter diesel six-cylinder -- and several more models to the list of illegally equipped vehicles. They include the 2014 VW Touareg, the 2015 Porsche Cayenne and the 2016 Audi A6 Quattro, A7 Quattro, A8, A8L and Q5".

grant_k

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#1419521 3-Nov-2015 09:44

Fred99: US EPA has filed a second set of charges against VAG.
"The agency also added a new engine -- the 3.0-liter diesel six-cylinder -- and several more models to the list of illegally equipped vehicles. They include the 2014 VW Touareg, the 2015 Porsche Cayenne and the 2016 Audi A6 Quattro, A7 Quattro, A8, A8L and Q5".

Eeek! This gets worse, much much worse. Are there any Diesel-engined VW or Audi models not affected by this? Not to mention Skoda, Seat etc.

Anyone affected who hasn't yet joined the Class Action group is encouraged to do so:

http://www.gibsonsheat.com/news-and-publications/latest-news/volkswagen-emissions-claims

As Edward Cox (lawyer) pointed out in a recent email:

Our communications to you

We will continue to send you weekly updates of progress (unless you ask to be removed from this email list or indicate that you do not wish to be part of any claim going forward). Registering your interest has not committed you to the claim or any expense in any way. Unless we have made separate arrangements with you, we will only become your solicitors for the claim once we propose the formal arrangements for the group claim and you commit to being a party to that claim.

No commitment is involved at this stage but it's worth being on the mailing list to keep informed of developments. Without a doubt, the resale value of our vehicles has been affected, which is sufficient grounds for a claim IMO.

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#1421653 5-Nov-2015 13:08

From The Wall Street Journal 04 Nov 2015

Volkswagen’s Emissions-Testing Scandal Widens

VW says recall could affect 800,000 more vehicles, stops U.S. sales of certain vehicles

VW shares fall by another 10%

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#1421814 5-Nov-2015 16:36

Awesome, I really want an RS6 for cheap when you guys throw it away for being a cheat ... Here's hoping .. :)

Technofreak

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#1421969 5-Nov-2015 20:35

joker97: Awesome, I really want an RS6 for cheap when you guys throw it away for being a cheat ... Here's hoping .. :)

I reckon you won't be the only one lining up, which means they won't be that cheap.

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Aredwood

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#1421982 5-Nov-2015 21:12

Fred99:
pdath:

Anyone who gets their ECU 'chipped' or has modified software installed is also gaming the system and likely causing greater emissions than their vehicle would have produced at the factory. In order to totally clamp down on this way of evading the rules, Govt. would need to insist on some sort of ECU verification process during a WOF. Can anyone really see that happening, especially in country garages that don't even have a dyno or any electronic testing gear at all, like my local mechanic?

VW have already written me a letter stating that "VW in Germany is working at full speed on a technical solution so that this issue can be fixed". No thanks Tom, I will leave my ECU as is. If some kind of forced recall process is put in place, it's easy enough to get the ECU modified afterwards, so back to square one...

In California, where this all rolled out, it is already illegal to "chip" or "modify" your ECU, unless that chip or ECU is already certified.

I hope that regulation NEVER comes into force in NZ. I like the idea of being able to adjust the parameters of my vehicle - much more than I care about the emissions.

California seems to have taken the more extreme position of the state telling the people how to live their lives. We live in a free country. We should be free to go about our own lives and make our own decisions, free from interference from the state - with the exception of major issues of public safety. I don't consider ECU modifications and "chipping" to be major issues of public safety.

Pollution is a major issue of public safety. Vehicle emissions have already been identified as #1 contributor to poor air quality in NZ.
"Chipping" and ECU modification or other modification which interferes with operation of emission control and without testing to ensure that the vehicle still complies is probably illegal in NZ anyway.
Depending on the (ECU) modification, LVV certification could be required anyway regardless of the fact that if it interferes with emissions (almost certainly) then emissions testing/certification is required. 20% power increase from "chipping" is often easily achieved from chipping, and in any case ECU "chipping" of any turbocharged vehicle automatically requires LVV certification. I expect most "chipped" cars on NZ roads aren't legal.

The laws are already there in place - so it's too late to "hope that the regulation never comes into force in NZ" - it's already here on paper. They might not be policed/enforced effectively at the moment, but I expect that'll probably change. It would be a big PITA to many people if emissions testing similar to that in California was brought in. It could happen.
You can probably thank VW for drawing attention to how easy it is to cheat the system. Don't shoot me for telling you this - I like cars too.

That law is really poorly written, and would be difficult to apply today. It was written back in the days when in order to carry out a firmware change on a car ECU. You had to open it up, remove the ROM chip, and install a new one that already has the updated firmware on it. Yet it doesn't say anything about replacing the whole ECU with one out of a different model that is factory programmed to make more power. Or with a standalone fully programmable aftermarket ECU.

Yet today a firmware upgrade is as easy as plugging in a cable and uploading new software. Does this count as "Chipping"? As the end result is the same. (the ECU is now running different firmware) If it is the same, Volkswagen would be breaking NZ law if they release new firmware to fix the emissions problems. Without also getting all those cars LVV certified.

And then there are situations where part replacements also require firmware changes. One example is Toyota started using different fuel injectors on their D4D diesel Hiace's. If a Hiace with the old type injectors needs new injectors fitted. An ECU firmware upgrade is required as the new injectors behave differently to the old ones. Yet technically An LVV cert is also needed. Even though the Hiace still performs exactly the same with the new injectors and firmware installed.

Fred99

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#1422178 6-Nov-2015 09:21

Aredwood:
That law is really poorly written, and would be difficult to apply today. It was written back in the days when in order to carry out a firmware change on a car ECU. You had to open it up, remove the ROM chip, and install a new one that already has the updated firmware on it. Yet it doesn't say anything about replacing the whole ECU with one out of a different model that is factory programmed to make more power. Or with a standalone fully programmable aftermarket ECU.

Yet today a firmware upgrade is as easy as plugging in a cable and uploading new software. Does this count as "Chipping"? As the end result is the same. (the ECU is now running different firmware) If it is the same, Volkswagen would be breaking NZ law if they release new firmware to fix the emissions problems. Without also getting all those cars LVV certified.

And then there are situations where part replacements also require firmware changes. One example is Toyota started using different fuel injectors on their D4D diesel Hiace's. If a Hiace with the old type injectors needs new injectors fitted. An ECU firmware upgrade is required as the new injectors behave differently to the old ones. Yet technically An LVV cert is also needed. Even though the Hiace still performs exactly the same with the new injectors and firmware installed.

So how could they legislate to ensure that emissions control on cars aren't "tampered"? Detecting and/or preventing it is so fraught with problems, then perhaps they should just give up and hope that for the entire NZ fleet "on average" emissions are reducing - though short of actually testing a large enough random sample, they'd actually have no idea at all what the situation really is, so would only be guessing the extent of any problem.
AFAIK it's not so easy to "chip" (flash) modern cars, petrol or diesel. With new model vehicles, it takes a year or two for aftermarket tuning guys to crack how the ECU works and be able to offer to reliably flash them. But then there are piggyback devices which adjust tuning, presumably intercepting and modifying signals from sensors to "trick" the ECU. "Pedal Boxes" seem pretty commonly used on diesel utes etc - plug in-between accelerator pedal and ECU, they're apparently doing more than just adjusting pedal sensitivity (and for the price, you'd expect they would), apparently increasing power, reducing the typical slight hesitation/lag, which I guess is due to the EGR valve still being open as the accelerator is pressed, introducing a slight hesitation as with the EGR valve open, it's reducing exhaust pressure / delaying turbo spooling up until the EGR valve closes. Just a guess that one thing the "pedal boxes" do is trick the ECU into keeping the EGR valve closed or with reduced flow at low throttle/idle, so that the turbo lag on opening the throttle goes away. If that's how they work, then NOx levels in normal driving will be much higher than original. The hesitation/lag in the CR turbo diesels I've driven isn't bad, but I notice it. Talking to owners, it seems to be "common knowledge" that it's easily fixed. Nobody cares about emissions.

If they insisted on checking that emission controls are functioning to OEM spec (ie when you had a WOF check done) then it's a great big can of worms. If the modification was a piggyback device, then if it's easily removed before the WOF check, then replaced after, there's no way to know even if exhaust emissions were tested. If exhaust emissions were tested, then they'd need to set reasonable levels taking into account vehicle age/mileage, emissions increase as catalytic converters, injectors etc "age", as well as from general engine wear.
Even with the stringent US EPA and California testing/controls, it took them years to discover VW's blatant cheating.

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