EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

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#2392101 14-Jan-2020 17:18

tripper1000:

The Govt, including the Greens do not have coherent strategies on energy. The price of electricity in N.Z. doesn't not truthfully reflect reality. Wholesale Electricity is very cheap off peak and very expensive on peak. Retail-wise, off-peak users heavily subsidise on-peak, suppressing on-peak prices, ripping off off-peak users, discouraging voluntary load shifting (from on peak to off peak) and stifling the commercial solar market. The system is geared to favour the electricity producers and take choices away from both the consumer and environmentalists.

Living on the spot price is great, until there is a dry year/gas shutdown etc, and it all goes nuts.....

Plenty of people got badly burnt in 2018, and most wont have squirrelled the savings away for a rainy ( dry) day/month...

It happened in '92, 2008, 2018, and will happen in the future as long as we only have 6 weeks of hydro storage...

Linuxluver

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#2392103 14-Jan-2020 17:33

wellygary:

tripper1000:

The Govt, including the Greens do not have coherent strategies on energy. The price of electricity in N.Z. doesn't not truthfully reflect reality. Wholesale Electricity is very cheap off peak and very expensive on peak. Retail-wise, off-peak users heavily subsidise on-peak, suppressing on-peak prices, ripping off off-peak users, discouraging voluntary load shifting (from on peak to off peak) and stifling the commercial solar market. The system is geared to favour the electricity producers and take choices away from both the consumer and environmentalists.

Living on the spot price is great, until there is a dry year/gas shutdown etc, and it all goes nuts.....

Plenty of people got badly burnt in 2018, and most wont have squirrelled the savings away for a rainy ( dry) day/month...

It happened in '92, 2008, 2018, and will happen in the future as long as we only have 6 weeks of hydro storage...

This is part of the logic behind my recent solar + battery install (7.7kw generating and 27kWh storage): insulate me from fake markets and real droughts. I'm generating almost 60kWh / day at present.....and exporting half of that even after charging up my electric car and running the house completely from solar / batteries. In winter it will be a very different situation but I should be able to run the house, at least, on solar for half the day. Our heat pump seems to be very efficient, needing only 400w for aircon on a really hot day. It will be interesting to see how it uses power for heating. Our house seems to be very well insulated.....so it stays cool on hot days even without aircon and stays warm on cool days.....without heaters.

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Linuxluver

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#2392106 14-Jan-2020 17:42

tdgeek:

RobDickinson:

Panels are falling fast, the battery system is the expensive bit and that will fall quickly over the next 3-5 years

Falling fast? Not from what I see. Based on cost per kW for each of his two installs, and the quote I got. His PW2 was circa 15k installed its now 18. Right now, it will cost you to install solar PV. Some can get away with it, but the PW2 while very cool is a poor investment. 13.5kW usable. $2-16 worth of power @16c off peak when you start using it. Thats $15 per week, and forget half the year. I LOVE solar but it doesnt work for most. Businesses yes. Generate and use same day. I raised the issue of every residence in NZ having solar how great would that be. But its a low cherry, residential power isnt a big user here, thats industrial, commercial and infrastructure. Not houses, but I thought it was a good idea, I still do, anything is a help. Bit its hard to force people to buy it and never get a return

The idea of a "return" is messed up if you don't attach any value to the advantages. I installed solar to allow me to have power when the grid is out. We've had 8 outages in 6 weeks. Six of them were a handful of seconds. One was 8 minutes and one was 46 minutes. We didn't notice. I just see it when I get notifications from the Tesla gateway that we now on backup power. OK. How do you value that? Most notions of return give it zero value.

Similarly, I have an electric car. I can either charge it directly on solar during the day or - for now, anyway - charge it later from the two Tesla Powerwalls (27kWh). My daily driving it usually only about 10kWh worth. So no issues draining the batteries. How do you value that? Most notions of "return" would give zero value to that as well. I'd recommend installing batteries even if you don't have solar. It can allow access to cheaper rates at peak times through storage....as well as backup power when the grid falls over due to bad weather. More bad weather is predicted as climate change progresses.

I value it highly. I'm seeing an excellent return on my investment in terms of reliability and redundancy....and knowing I can get some power into my car if I need even if the grid is out.

In the winter, I'll probably set the backup reserve power level to 50% so I know if there's a storm and lines go down.....I can still put 50km into my car.

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tdgeek

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#2392173 14-Jan-2020 18:29

tripper1000:

The Govt, including the Greens do not have coherent strategies on energy. The price of electricity in N.Z. doesn't not truthfully reflect reality. Wholesale Electricity is very cheap off peak and very expensive on peak. Retail-wise, off-peak users heavily subsidise on-peak, suppressing on-peak prices, ripping off off-peak users, discouraging voluntary load shifting (from on peak to off peak) and stifling the commercial solar market. The system is geared to favour the electricity producers and take choices away from both the consumer and environmentalists.

Technically speaking the structure of the N.Z. electricity grid presently favours large scale solar installations. With solar you require gird level storage - we already have this in the form of Hydro Dams - when the sun is shining brightly, you close the taps and conserve hydro-water/energy in the dams. As the sun sets, open the taps, use the stored energy.

In terms of solar, the geographical location of who uses vs who consumes power in the daytime should be irrelevant at a national level - grid-tied solar on residential roofs could/should be meeting the rise in daytime industrial demand. Because we have no coherent national strategy PW2 etc becomes relevant because you are forced to strategise at a personal level instead.

Id like to agree, hence why I posted a couple of yeasr back that every house should have solar. But the experts here, and they are/were, showed that residential power usage is pretty low. I was shocked it was that low in fact. As to pricing, I'm no expert and it would not surprise me but it comes down to the same old effing problem, Govt wont upset taxpayers, or businesses, so it is kept under the radar, as right now, what we have is "normal", as in the usual, the same, dont rock the boat

One day, the budget will ONLY be about climate change adaption, not resolve.

tdgeek

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#2392174 14-Jan-2020 18:35

Linuxluver:

wellygary:

tripper1000:

The Govt, including the Greens do not have coherent strategies on energy. The price of electricity in N.Z. doesn't not truthfully reflect reality. Wholesale Electricity is very cheap off peak and very expensive on peak. Retail-wise, off-peak users heavily subsidise on-peak, suppressing on-peak prices, ripping off off-peak users, discouraging voluntary load shifting (from on peak to off peak) and stifling the commercial solar market. The system is geared to favour the electricity producers and take choices away from both the consumer and environmentalists.

Living on the spot price is great, until there is a dry year/gas shutdown etc, and it all goes nuts.....

Plenty of people got badly burnt in 2018, and most wont have squirrelled the savings away for a rainy ( dry) day/month...

It happened in '92, 2008, 2018, and will happen in the future as long as we only have 6 weeks of hydro storage...

This is part of the logic behind my recent solar + battery install (7.7kw generating and 27kWh storage): insulate me from fake markets and real droughts. I'm generating almost 60kWh / day at present.....and exporting half of that even after charging up my electric car and running the house completely from solar / batteries. In winter it will be a very different situation but I should be able to run the house, at least, on solar for half the day. Our heat pump seems to be very efficient, needing only 400w for aircon on a really hot day. It will be interesting to see how it uses power for heating. Our house seems to be very well insulated.....so it stays cool on hot days even without aircon and stays warm on cool days.....without heaters.

Magic!!!

Heatpump heating is much lower energy than cooling. Our house is the same. Lots of windows, north facing, plenty of drapes to close in summer, plenty to open in Winter.

Following my recent posts on solar if that was break even Id plump for it, as it makes no difference, but im my case they say the roof is such that I can't get any more than 1.7kW, 5 panels. I assumed that as each panel has its own inverter, I can get a few here and here and here and here. I dont care about the extra costs, but I didn't bother pushing it. Maybe I could get someone else over?

tdgeek

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#2392178 14-Jan-2020 18:44

Linuxluver:

tdgeek:

RobDickinson:

Panels are falling fast, the battery system is the expensive bit and that will fall quickly over the next 3-5 years

Falling fast? Not from what I see. Based on cost per kW for each of his two installs, and the quote I got. His PW2 was circa 15k installed its now 18. Right now, it will cost you to install solar PV. Some can get away with it, but the PW2 while very cool is a poor investment. 13.5kW usable. $2-16 worth of power @16c off peak when you start using it. Thats $15 per week, and forget half the year. I LOVE solar but it doesnt work for most. Businesses yes. Generate and use same day. I raised the issue of every residence in NZ having solar how great would that be. But its a low cherry, residential power isnt a big user here, thats industrial, commercial and infrastructure. Not houses, but I thought it was a good idea, I still do, anything is a help. Bit its hard to force people to buy it and never get a return

The idea of a "return" is messed up if you don't attach any value to the advantages. I installed solar to allow me to have power when the grid is out. We've had 8 outages in 6 weeks. Six of them were a handful of seconds. One was 8 minutes and one was 46 minutes. We didn't notice. I just see it when I get notifications from the Tesla gateway that we now on backup power. OK. How do you value that? Most notions of return give it zero value.

Similarly, I have an electric car. I can either charge it directly on solar during the day or - for now, anyway - charge it later from the two Tesla Powerwalls (27kWh). My daily driving it usually only about 10kWh worth. So no issues draining the batteries. How do you value that? Most notions of "return" would give zero value to that as well. I'd recommend installing batteries even if you don't have solar. It can allow access to cheaper rates at peak times through storage....as well as backup power when the grid falls over due to bad weather. More bad weather is predicted as climate change progresses.

I value it highly. I'm seeing an excellent return on my investment in terms of reliability and redundancy....and knowing I can get some power into my car if I need even if the grid is out.

In the winter, I'll probably set the backup reserve power level to 50% so I know if there's a storm and lines go down.....I can still put 50km into my car.

I get that Steve. I didnt add any more to my previous posts as I felt a bit of anti greenness aimed at me. My mate has about 9kw solar, and a PW2. He doesn't manage it. His are half east and half west. If he saved ALL the opportunity cost, my power bill is less. I would manage it better but it wont be a lifesaver $ wise. My house faces north so I was up for it. (As I would generate more and more efficiently per kW)If it was break even (opportunity cost or interest or mortgage interest) was the same as the savings, Id take it. As its no effect, BUT its green and good, so why not? Here (ChCh there are no power issues, so that has no value for me.

Its a bit annoying as we have a largish sqm house, large section (1/4 acre) but its too small for solar GRRR

NB I have 40 tubes of solar HW (or 50 maybe)

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#2392258 15-Jan-2020 00:19

Is it true the government has canceled plans for feebate rebates for EVs as described in The Herald a couple of weeks ago?

RobDickinson

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#2392296 15-Jan-2020 08:36

dont think its cancelled? not heard that but I suspect its on hold until after next election.

kingdragonfly

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#2392322 15-Jan-2020 09:17

Nothing in the news the last month regarding axing / delaying freebates.

tdgeek

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#2392323 15-Jan-2020 09:20

Isnt it a proposed policy that is accepting feedback? If Labour gets in they would pass the law/regulation in time for 2021 I assume

kingdragonfly

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#2392324 15-Jan-2020 09:21

Power play: Government bolsters green fleet, almost half of all ministerial cars now an EV

NZ Herald by Jason Walls

The new electric cars will mean that roughly 40 per cent of the 72-vehicle ministerial Crown fleet is either fully electric, or a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle.

The Government is promising to ditch diesel-powered ministerial cars and is immediately purchasing another six new electric SUVs for the fleet.
...

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kingdragonfly

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#2392325 15-Jan-2020 09:22

National is talking about dumping fuel taxes, and fining bicyclists who don't use cycle lanes.

Progressive as usual :(

kingdragonfly

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#2392328 15-Jan-2020 09:27

EV predictions hold true

EVTalk.co.nz by Geoff Dobson

EV registration predictions provided a year ago by Zero Carbon Futures United Kingdom managing director Dr Colin Herron at the EVworld South Expo Christchurch have proved extremely accurate.

...Herron’s forecast a year ago was for New Zealand to reach 11,315 EV registrations in December 2018, the actual figure being 11,763.

His tracking (increasing by about 500 a month) would then have led close to the 18,186 EV registrations actually recorded in November 2019.

So how is New Zealand looking to achieve the former National Government’s target of 64,000 EVs on the road by the end of 2021?

New Zealand will have to reach about 32,000 EVs by the end of 2020 to remain on track, EV numbers doubling each year.

But Herron says it’s likely to be around 25,000 in 2020 “if nothing significant happens”. That could imply if the Labour-led Government doesn’t step up on its Clean Car Discount (feebate) and Clean Car Standard (emissions) proposals then the EV surge could slow.

Herron had also forecast an EV supply shortage here and in many other countries, adding EV battery production was also insufficient.

While many new EV models are expected in 2020, demand for them in Europe and elsewhere may leave New Zealand with a ‘gap EV year’ in 2020 before supply catches up here.

RobDickinson

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#2392332 15-Jan-2020 09:44

We'll not double the fleet in 2020.

Used leafs are a fixed limited supply and new cars are mostly going to europe and are too expensive on the whole for NZ for now

wellygary

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#2392344 15-Jan-2020 10:14

kingdragonfly: EV predictions hold true

But Herron says it’s likely to be around 25,000 in 2020 “if nothing significant happens”. That could imply if the Labour-led Government doesn’t step up on its Clean Car Discount (feebate) and Clean Car Standard (emissions) proposals then the EV surge could slow.

.

The EV Surge is already slowing, the "growth of the growth" has been declining since 2017, and last year the actual numbers of imported used leafs fell,

Also the snide "could imply if the Labour-led Government doesn’t step up on its Clean Car Discount (feebate)" is totally rubbish given that the consulted feebate isn't expected to begin until 2021 at the earliest

"When could the Clean Car Discount come into effect?

The Clean Car Discount could come into effect in 2021. This would allow for the necessary legislation and administrative arrangements to be in place, as well as vehicle tailpipe CO2 emissions to be collected and recorded in the Motor Vehicle Register as part of vehicle entry certification."

https://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/Import/Uploads/Our-Work/Documents/11de862c28/LEV-consultation-document-final.pdf

In reality there is the possibility that if the government does go ahead with the feebate scheme as planned , it could cause 2020 EV sales to tank as everyone waits for subsidies in 2021...

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