EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

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#2646444 3-Feb-2021 13:40

Obraik:

But an ICE vehicle can never be nearly 100% emissions free. An EV can.

I fully agree. In terms of the daily drive thru the lifetime of the vehicle the EV clearly wins very well there. But thats just one part pf the puzzle, but an EV and an ICE are manufactured dirty. That's not the ICE's fault or the EV's fault. So if they are BOTH made green you get the same gain. As that core issue is factories not the ICE. If all factories are green the the ICE is as good as the EV, if they are all dirty the EV is as bad as the ICE. Thats the big problem to solve, making all factories green.

Obraik

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#2646448 3-Feb-2021 13:48

tdgeek:

I fully agree. In terms of the daily drive thru the lifetime of the vehicle the EV clearly wins very well there. But thats just one part pf the puzzle, but an EV and an ICE are manufactured dirty. That's not the ICE's fault or the EV's fault. So if they are BOTH made green you get the same gain. As that core issue is factories not the ICE. If all factories are green the the ICE is as good as the EV, if they are all dirty the EV is as bad as the ICE. Thats the big problem to solve, making all factories green.

I'm sorry but that logic doesn't add up.

Sure, if the both an ICE vehicle and an EV was made and never driven then the ICE vehicle is better, but that's not the reality is it? Even with the manufacturing emissions for an EV currently, an EV is still better than the ICE vehicle emissions wise, usually within 6-12 months in a country like New Zealand.

Anyway, this nit picking you're doing is pointless. The point I was making was that EVs can be almost 100% emissions free to make and run. An ICE vehicle can't. I didn't say that EVs are 100% emissions free today. I don't think I can clarify myself any further for you so for the sake of not dragging out this discussion, I'm ending it on this note.

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HarmLessSolutions

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#2646449 3-Feb-2021 13:54

tdgeek:

I fully agree. In terms of the daily drive thru the lifetime of the vehicle the EV clearly wins very well there. But thats just one part pf the puzzle, but an EV and an ICE are manufactured dirty. That's not the ICE's fault or the EV's fault. So if they are BOTH made green you get the same gain. As that core issue is factories not the ICE. If all factories are green the the ICE is as good as the EV, if they are all dirty the EV is as bad as the ICE. Thats the big problem to solve, making all factories green.

As much a problem is seeing through the corporate 'greenwashing' of the pretenders.

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tdgeek

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#2646452 3-Feb-2021 14:01

Obraik:

I'm sorry but that logic doesn't add up.

Sure, if the both an ICE vehicle and an EV was made and never driven then the ICE vehicle is better, but that's not the reality is it? Even with the manufacturing emissions for an EV currently, an EV is still better than the ICE vehicle emissions wise, usually within 6-12 months in a country like New Zealand.

Anyway, this nit picking you're doing is pointless. The point I was making was that EVs can be almost 100% emissions free to make and run. An ICE vehicle can't. I didn't say that EVs are 100% emissions free today. I don't think I can clarify myself any further for you so for the sake of not dragging out this discussion, I'm ending it on this note.

Nit picking? Thats you as it always is as you are such a fan that you cannot look past anything that doenst give the EV 10/10. Its c;ea;ly better to be a fan of reducing emmisisons than a fan of EV's.

If you prefer to ignore the manufacturing emissions and just focus on fuel emissions, so be it. That wont save Earth

The point I was making was that EVs can be almost 100% emissions free to make and run. An ICE vehicle can't.

I dont disagree at all. Never have. Again you are focusisng on fuel only as thats good news.

Obraik

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#2646453 3-Feb-2021 14:05

tdgeek:

I dont disagree at all. Never have. Again you are focusisng on fuel only as thats good news.

I suggest you re-read what I wrote as that is not what I wrote.

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gzt

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#2646454 3-Feb-2021 14:06

This phase of arguing which is better - it's really over. Many major automakers have announced a 100% electric future.

ICE is gone. The only thing that can save it now is total stupidity.

tdgeek

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#2646457 3-Feb-2021 14:18

Obraik:

I suggest you re-read what I wrote as that is not what I wrote.

No need

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GV27

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#2646460 3-Feb-2021 14:22

tdgeek:

GV27:

And last time I checked, conventional engine blocks, spark plugs and other items you'd find in an ICE that requires fossil fuels to run aren't exactly made from hemp and daisies, nor are the smelters that cast them or the extractive industries focused around ores.

Same applies to EV's. They have metal in their engine, and the rest of the car is the same, so its not a none vs many argument. And a large EV has more than a small ICE, so I dont follow your point. Not unless EVs are made from cardboard

My point is there is suddenly a lot of concern about the batteries of cars, but comparatively little scrutiny of the emissions or extractive processes involved in casting, say, an an engine or gearbox or all the other bits and pieces that ICE cars have that EVs do not. If we are going to start being sensitive about this then, as I say, let's compare apples with apples.

tdgeek

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#2646462 3-Feb-2021 14:27

gzt: This phase of arguing which is better - it's really over. Many major automakers have announced a 100% electric future.

ICE is gone. The only thing that can save it now is total stupidity.

Not only do I have no issue with that I am glad of it. But I'd rather not read misleading stuff about how magical EV's are and how nasty ICE is. The difference between an ICE and an EV emissions wise is just the fuel effect. If you manufacture both dirty as most are, and have coal burning electricity as most is, there isnt a great deal of gain from an EV

What you do need is electrification of all manufacturing businesses, of which cars is just one such business amongst the many many others make

frankv

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#2646464 3-Feb-2021 14:35

tdgeek:

GV27:

And last time I checked, conventional engine blocks, spark plugs and other items you'd find in an ICE that requires fossil fuels to run aren't exactly made from hemp and daisies, nor are the smelters that cast them or the extractive industries focused around ores.

Same applies to EV's. They have metal in their engine, and the rest of the car is the same, so its not a none vs many argument. And a large EV has more than a small ICE, so I dont follow your point. Not unless EVs are made from cardboard

I think the point is that an EV has a lightweight motor (or 2 or 4) instead of a quarter-tonne? of aluminium and steel that's in an ICE and transmission. So, *much* less manufacturing emissions in making that part, although, granted, the rest of the car will be much the same. And, for the EV, you then have add on emissions in mining lithium and manufacturing batteries.

Comparing large EVs against small ICEVs isn't relevant, unless you're expecting small ICEVs to be replaced by a large EVs. If the general size mix of the vehicle fleet remains the same, then EV manufacture will create less emissions than ICEV manufacture. Unless (lithium mining plus battery manufacture) generates more CO2 than (mining bauxite and iron ore plus engine and transmission manufacture).

tdgeek

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#2646465 3-Feb-2021 14:38

GV27:

My point is there is suddenly a lot of concern about the batteries of cars, but comparatively little scrutiny of the emissions or extractive processes involved in casting, say, an an engine or gearbox or all the other bits and pieces that ICE cars have that EVs do not. If we are going to start being sensitive about this then, as I say, let's compare apples with apples.

Sure. There is more metal in an ICE by virtue of the engine and transmission. yep, agree. So the battery issue, if there is one, is lessened, if thats what you mean, no issue with that. yes, lets compare apples with apples, but the way this thread is going is ICE fans vs EV fans. Yet I am not an ICE fan I am an EV fan, but moreover a CC fan. Its like comparing an ICE made in green NZ burning FF or an EV made in USA from coal electricity and charging batteries from coal electricity. Or avoiding that and lets just talk about an EV "can" almost be 100% green. Thats not apples with apples either.

tdgeek

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#2646467 3-Feb-2021 14:50

frankv:

If the general size mix of the vehicle fleet remains the same, then EV manufacture will create less emissions than ICEV manufacture. Unless (lithium mining plus battery manufacture) generates more CO2 than (mining bauxite and iron ore plus engine and transmission manufacture).

The item that TecnnoF posted more or less stated that. That may be correct or not, but clearly both are dirty, production wise. In NZ we can recover some of that as our electricity is clean, even though the rest of the EV is dirty. Thats the point of that article, EV's are not a silver bullet . The silver bullet is green electrified manufacturing of anything, including cars. The EV is beneficial, but whether its a dirty manufacture of both cars, or a clean manufacture of both cars, the EV benefit doesnt change. The key point is that manufacturing must change dont look at EV's with blinkers on. Both are dirty

Obraik

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#2646469 3-Feb-2021 14:56

tdgeek:

The difference between an ICE and an EV emissions wise is just the fuel effect. If you manufacture both dirty as most are, and have coal burning electricity as most is, there isnt a great deal of gain from an EV

Not true.

For all the reasons that have been posted and linked to before.

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tdgeek

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#2646472 3-Feb-2021 15:03

Seperate the net benefit of a manufactured car (EV and ICE) from the emissions borne by manufacturing anything. I could sit here and discuss the dirtiest built EV and the dirtiest electricity, and compare that to the cleanest built ICE, but thats not apples to apples . Or I could do the opposite....

RunningMan

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#2646534 3-Feb-2021 17:18

This thread is supposed to be about EV news, so people can keep up with new developments. Perhaps move the ICE v EV debate to a new thread?

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