EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

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#2728514 14-Jun-2021 13:52

WyleECoyoteNZ:

is NZ generating enough electricity for wide spread EV adoption?

This story from ACT MP Simon Court a couple of weeks ago says maybe not.

I'm going to get over my instinctive reaction to reject out of hand anything an ACT MP has to say on the topic of the environment and simply point out that several studies have, in fact, been done on this topic, and the shocking answer is that NZ needs to expand the generation and distribution networks. Fortunately, more electricity used means more electricity sold so the null option as presented in the "let's build more generation and distribution capacity" business cases over the next few years will probably not be the one chosen.

It's always hilarious when someone trots out that line. Like, no, the people whose whole career it is to run the electricity networks totally overlooked this incredible insight you, Internet Rando, just had regarding system capacity.

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Dingbatt

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#2728515 14-Jun-2021 13:55

Certainly has a political slant to it (article by Simon Court). I mean an engineer with quarter of a century in the energy industry, what could he possibly know that Megan Woods and James Shaw don’t?

NZ is currently importing coal to make up for the generation shortfall. So not using high quality coal from NZ, but using oil burning ships to bring lower quality stuff from overseas. Probably just as well NZF torpedoed the clean car policy (I guess they couldn’t call it the ‘green’ car policy) otherwise any increase in EV numbers achieved would have essentially be ‘coal powered’.

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Jaxson

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#2728518 14-Jun-2021 14:01

Unfortunately the electricity coming out of the socket doesn't change colour to indicate it's coming from coal vs renewables such as wind or hydro.

Scott3

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#2728519 14-Jun-2021 14:02

Dingbatt:

Certainly has a political slant to it. I mean an engineer with quarter of a century in the energy industry, what could he possibly know that Megan Woods and James Shaw don’t?

NZ is currently importing coal to make up for the generation shortfall. So not using high quality coal from NZ, but using oil burning ships to bring lower quality stuff from overseas. Probably just as well NZF torpedoed the clean car policy (I guess they couldn’t call it the ‘green’ car policy) otherwise any increase in EV numbers achieved would have essentially be ‘coal powered’.

Studies have show that even if an EV is 100% powered by coal, it is still less emitting than a typical petrol vehicle.

Should note the amount of coal NZ is currently burning is due to a double black swan event. We have a dry year stacked on top of a natural gas shortages due to production issues. The current situation is quite a rare event rather than the norm...

Final thing to be aware of is that NZ's fleet is on average something like 13 years old. It is quite a lot faster to build renewable generation capacity compared to waiting until cars sold this year drop out of our fleet due to being at end of life. This means that getting clean car policy through quickly was quite important.

tdgeek

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#2728521 14-Jun-2021 14:04

WyleECoyoteNZ:

With this news over the weekend, is NZ generating enough electricity for wide spread EV adoption?

It will be a very slow burn. It will take years and years for EV usage to have any effect. One would hope that in that time the coal generation will be scrapped, otherwise....

SaltyNZ

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#2728522 14-Jun-2021 14:05

Dingbatt:

Certainly has a political slant to it (article by Simon Court). I mean an engineer with quarter of a century in the energy industry, what could he possibly know that Megan Woods and James Shaw don’t?

He was a civil engineer, not an electrical engineer. I wouldn't put forth my opinions on bridge design as expert advice. But I will give you that an engineer should have more technical knowledge in general than a politician. Nevertheless I stand by my point that "putting EVs onto the electrical grid requires more electricity, bet you didn't think of that, ha!" can only be either in someone arguing in bad faith or from hopeless ignorance. Either way it isn't one that really needs to be engaged with.

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Obraik

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#2728530 14-Jun-2021 14:21

Dingbatt:

Certainly has a political slant to it (article by Simon Court). I mean an engineer with quarter of a century in the energy industry, what could he possibly know that Megan Woods and James Shaw don’t?

NZ is currently importing coal to make up for the generation shortfall. So not using high quality coal from NZ, but using oil burning ships to bring lower quality stuff from overseas. Probably just as well NZF torpedoed the clean car policy (I guess they couldn’t call it the ‘green’ car policy) otherwise any increase in EV numbers achieved would have essentially be ‘coal powered’.

We use coal to cover the peak load and as far as I can tell, that's only coming from the two coal boilers at Huntly. There is a limit on how much power Huntly can supply via coal.

If Labour kicks off their pumped hydro plan that issue may disappear as that can then store off peak generation from renewable sources and supply it back into the grid during peak times and hopefully eliminating the need for Huntly at all. If there's not enough off peak generation to fully fill the pumped hydro storage then it might be an opportune time to incentivise rooftop solar.

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frankv

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#2728536 14-Jun-2021 14:41

There's no particular need for the pumped hydro to charge EVs, since the main benefit of pumped hydro is to shift the peak load. You can achieve the same thing by car owners setting timers to charge the car.

Since no-one has mentioned it, I'll add that rooftop solar is another, easily scalable, source of electricity generation that doesn't put any load on the network. Add some batteries and you'll be able to store your surplus power until you get home to charge your car rather than sell surplus power to the grid at 7c/kWh. Coincidentally, people repurposing slightly-too-tired-to-use-in-an-EV EV batteries to use with their home solar is one of the reasons why EV battery recycling is not yet a thing.

wellygary

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#2728538 14-Jun-2021 14:51

Obraik:

We use coal to cover the peak load and as far as I can tell, that's only coming from the two coal boilers at Huntly. There is a limit on how much power Huntly can supply via coal.

If Labour kicks off their pumped hydro plan that issue may disappear as that can then store off peak generation from renewable sources and supply it back into the grid during peak times and hopefully eliminating the need for Huntly at all. If there's not enough off peak generation to fully fill the pumped hydro storage then it might be an opportune time to incentivise rooftop solar.

Genesis have made 3 Rankines available to the network this winter,

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/genesis-to-bring-coal-fired-unit-out-of-mothballs-as-lake-levels-fall/HM26HPGB7PY4Z4HRVH5R274SYE/

They've also done a deal to buy some Methanex gas this winter to allow them to run E3P (unit 5) fully ,

But on the downside, Mercury's Kawerau geothermal station has failed, and will be out of action for a couple of months

frankv

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#2728540 14-Jun-2021 15:18

wellygary:

Genesis have made 3 Rankines available to the network this winter,

Blondes with large earrings? One was more than enough! But potentially a good way to get warm, I suppose.

Obraik

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#2728542 14-Jun-2021 15:23

frankv:

There's no particular need for the pumped hydro to charge EVs, since the main benefit of pumped hydro is to shift the peak load. You can achieve the same thing by car owners setting timers to charge the car.

Since no-one has mentioned it, I'll add that rooftop solar is another, easily scalable, source of electricity generation that doesn't put any load on the network. Add some batteries and you'll be able to store your surplus power until you get home to charge your car rather than sell surplus power to the grid at 7c/kWh. Coincidentally, people repurposing slightly-too-tired-to-use-in-an-EV EV batteries to use with their home solar is one of the reasons why EV battery recycling is not yet a thing.

It was more going down the tangent of coal being used to power the grid. However, people charging their cars at night is based on people doing the right thing, which isn't always the way everyone works. Some power companies try and incentivise people to do things like charging their cars off peak by making desirable off peak rates, but those plans don't suit everyone so it costs the same to charge at anytime of the day.

I did mention rooftop solar but as I mentioned, it's only useful if there's somewhere to store if for when you need it. Having home energy storage is one way, but pumped hydro is another way to use the grid to store it.

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HarmLessSolutions

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#2728544 14-Jun-2021 15:31

Obraik:

It was more going down the tangent of coal being used to power the grid. However, people charging their cars at night is based on people doing the right thing, which isn't always the way everyone works. Some power companies try and incentivise people to do things like charging their cars off peak by making desirable off peak rates, but those plans don't suit everyone so it costs the same to charge at anytime of the day.

I did mention rooftop solar but as I mentioned, it's only useful if there's somewhere to store if for when you need it. Having home energy storage is one way, but pumped hydro is another way to use the grid to store it.

EVs are themselves a way of storing excess PV generation or levelling generation by way of V2G technology which Northpower is currently trialling in NZ

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

Obraik

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#2728548 14-Jun-2021 15:39

Yeah, some EVs are but it's not universal. Tesla's don't have V2G technology, for example.

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Ge0rge

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#2728549 14-Jun-2021 15:43

Obraik:
Yeah, some EVs are but it's not universal. Tesla's don't have V2G technology, for example.

Nor is of very much value when the car is used to travel to work during the day.

frankv

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#2728555 14-Jun-2021 15:54

Ge0rge:

Nor is of very much value when the car is used to travel to work during the day.

Dunno... drive home after work, use what's left in your car battery to provide power for your cooking and heating, then charge up the car battery during the wee small hours for (if you live close enough to work, cooking your breakfast and) your commute.

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