EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

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387 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1749313 28-Mar-2017 11:51

Inconsiderate users is an issue, and will increase once EVs become more popular.

One thing I noticed with the Tesla charging network is they seem to be unattended. I would have thought a cafe onsite, even if it were a touch overpriced for the captive market, would be a winner. Give the punters something to do for their twenty minutes, and the profits from the cafe could make the "free charging for life" sustainable.

It would seem they haven't gone down that route but if charging stations are placed well in general, the idea of stopping for a coffee every couple of hours on long trips makes a 200k range quite manageable. Perhaps Z and BP need to get in on the action as they have the cafe's with good hours already in place.

frednz

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#1749360 28-Mar-2017 12:58

trig42:

^ Your AKL to INV trip will be interesting.

I'm assuming you are doing it with other EV drivers? Will be interested to see if you have any Charger congestion - having to wait for others to finish.

At the moment, the charging infrastructure appears to exceed demand, which is great. Hopefully it can stay that way. The issues I see arising is lots more EVs on the road, and big waits (or inconsiderate users hogging the spots) at public EV chargers.

Yes, I guess this is a critical issue that will have to be dealt with in the future as more EV's are sold. How do they cope overseas with this problem? This is why I like the concept of the BMW i3, which has an initial battery range of about 180km and then a small petrol motor kicks in and charges the battery while you drive to give another 120kms or so. If the charging stations at one particular town are full, then a fill of 9 litres of petrol will get you a further 120kms along the journey!

Most plug-in hybrids, at present, seem to have no more than about 30-50km of electric range, so don't you think it would be good if this could be increased considerably using the BMW i3 concept described above.

Incidentally, what do you think of the i3? I know that the new price of the range extender model of $85,300 is very expensive for such a small vehicle, but as a concept, do you like this vehicle?

Thanks

Fred

tripper1000

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#1749425 28-Mar-2017 14:22

frednz:

Thanks for this very good advice. I think a lot of people still have "range anxiety" with regard to "pure" electric vehicles, even though their range is gradually increasing. In this article about the new $60,000 28kWh Hyundai Ioniq pure electric vehicle it says that

...the five-door liftback, which is about the same size as a Hyundai Elantra, goes on sale with an entry price of $59,990 - thousands of dollars less than the EVs that have entered the Kiwi new vehicle market so far.

And secondly, Hyundai New Zealand claims that range anxiety is much less of an issue with the Ioniq. On a full charge it has a range of up to 200 kilometres, which makes it more than an urban commuter, and suitable also for normal use in regional and rural New Zealand.

In a test drive of the Ioniq between Queenstown and Glenorchy (a return distance of about 170k), it was reported that on the way back into Queenstown,

... the Ioniq began to panic, telling us that our battery charge was running critically low. We began to panic too, responding by completely turning off the air conditioning, gently using the brakes as much as we could as we approached intersections, and even not using the car's indicators.

As a result, we got to our destination, with an indicated 7 kilometres of battery charge left.

That was too close for comfort - our frayed nerves told us so. But at the same time the exercise proved to us that a range of upwards of 200km can be achieved in this electric car, and that the on-board computers are exceptionally accurate in advising how much juice is left and what is the remaining range.

This article might indicate to some buyers that owning a pure electric vehicle is great for running around town, but for longer distances, you really need a car with petrol back-up so that the "range anxiety" reported in the above test drive is avoided.

Fred

Thanks for the links. That "Range Anxiety" article is what you get when you get a creative writer doing technical reviews. They did their maths, the car performed exactly as predicted, the journey was completed - just like any other boring journey in any conventional car. I feel the "anxiety" in the article was for the sake of entertainment of the masses by playing up prejudices.

At the end of the day, the only difference in thinking between electric and petrol is that the number you are planning "refuels" around, changes from ~500kms to ~200kms. No new skills are needed.

Range Anxiety is nothing new - a former girlfriend of mine used to fill up with gas at 1/2 a tank because she "didn't want to run out of gas on the motorway".

Ge0rge

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#1749607 28-Mar-2017 17:17

tripper1000:
Range Anxiety is nothing new - a former girlfriend of mine used to fill up with gas at 1/2 a tank because she "didn't want to run out of gas on the motorway".

I have a vehicle I generally only drive in the weekends (although not exclusively). Whenever I am heading home, if it's under 3/4, I refuel it. A, it's always ready to go. B, there's no risk of condensation build up in a full tank, significantly reducing the risk of water damage to critical components. Your former girlfriend was probably doing herself and her car a favour without even realising it.

Linuxluver

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#1749783 28-Mar-2017 21:17

trig42:

^ Your AKL to INV trip will be interesting.

I'm assuming you are doing it with other EV drivers? Will be interested to see if you have any Charger congestion - having to wait for others to finish.

At the moment, the charging infrastructure appears to exceed demand, which is great. Hopefully it can stay that way. The issues I see arising is lots more EVs on the road, and big waits (or inconsiderate users hogging the spots) at public EV chargers.

Yes. It's part of the "Leading the Charge" EV promotion activities of the BetterNZ Trust. EECA is also sponsoring it, along with various businesses.....for example, people taking part get free ferry travel between the North and South islands.

There will be "congestion" on the route I am on as there will be 6 EVs departing each morning for the next destination. The Tesla's probably won't need to charge on the way, but my LEAF and the BMW i3 certainly will.....along with any other LEAFs / Mievs / Ioniqs taking part. We will schedule our departures to minimise overlaps. The event schedule has lots of slack in it to allow for this. A convoy of EVs isn't the usual traffic pattern. :-)

Waiting happens sometimes......but I've waited just as long to gas up at the Caltex in Birkdale on a Sunday morning.....so I can still handle it at this point. :-)

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Linuxluver

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#1749833 28-Mar-2017 23:23

ghettomaster:

Inconsiderate users is an issue, and will increase once EVs become more popular.

One thing I noticed with the Tesla charging network is they seem to be unattended. I would have thought a cafe onsite, even if it were a touch overpriced for the captive market, would be a winner. Give the punters something to do for their twenty minutes, and the profits from the cafe could make the "free charging for life" sustainable.

It would seem they haven't gone down that route but if charging stations are placed well in general, the idea of stopping for a coffee every couple of hours on long trips makes a 200k range quite manageable. Perhaps Z and BP need to get in on the action as they have the cafe's with good hours already in place.

The approach you describe, of making stops minor 'destinations' in themselves, is the approach being taken in most places by most charging networks.

Charge.Net have generally located their chargers where they can get permission AND sufficient power is available (the two largest factors by far in all locations). They have had some success in placing them at Z Stations (Beach Rd, Auckland CBD / Dannemora, Auckland, Jackson St, Petone, etc..), in or very near shopping areas (Bayfair in Tauranga, Totora St, Dargaville CBD, Dowse Art Gallery, Lower Hutt CBD). The power companies, like Vector, have also made some effort to do the same, the pair of chargers next to the Mcdonalds and Countdown in Greenlane, Auckland, being a good example. WEL have had less success in this area: their toilet-free dead zone in Te Rapa, the also toilet-free, mozzie-infested scrubland on a sideroad in Te Kauwhata, the edge of a parking lot in a business park in Hamilton East. Their only real success at location has been the charging station in Raglan....right in the heart of town.

It would be ideal if larger businesses took on the role and got the job done.....but I've found in my life that established large businesses tend to the last to get behind any change. Others tend to drive it and build it and the big boys move in at the last minute and add scale and displace all the small players who spent years getting it going. The Internet in NZ would be a good recent example.....from a decade of enthusiastic evangelists stringing fibre on trolley wires.......to Telecom and Vodafone and a few other large players moving in - finally - and eating it all up. The power companies are large businesses, right? Yep....and generally publicly owned, not private.

Real change tends to take citizen action and government support.

Business follows on. I know some see this in reverse, but there is precious little evidence to support that for big changes. So we aren't seeing nationwide chain stores leading the way with their own networks of charging stations......yet.

It will happen eventually, after others have promoted EVs to the point where they see the value in getting behind it themselves.

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Linuxluver

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#1749836 28-Mar-2017 23:33

frednz:

trig42:

^ Your AKL to INV trip will be interesting.

I'm assuming you are doing it with other EV drivers? Will be interested to see if you have any Charger congestion - having to wait for others to finish.

At the moment, the charging infrastructure appears to exceed demand, which is great. Hopefully it can stay that way. The issues I see arising is lots more EVs on the road, and big waits (or inconsiderate users hogging the spots) at public EV chargers.

Yes, I guess this is a critical issue that will have to be dealt with in the future as more EV's are sold. How do they cope overseas with this problem? This is why I like the concept of the BMW i3, which has an initial battery range of about 180km and then a small petrol motor kicks in and charges the battery while you drive to give another 120kms or so. If the charging stations at one particular town are full, then a fill of 9 litres of petrol will get you a further 120kms along the journey!

Most plug-in hybrids, at present, seem to have no more than about 30-50km of electric range, so don't you think it would be good if this could be increased considerably using the BMW i3 concept described above.

Incidentally, what do you think of the i3? I know that the new price of the range extender model of $85,300 is very expensive for such a small vehicle, but as a concept, do you like this vehicle?

Thanks

Fred

Overseas they build more chargers and / or developing queueing systems. Charge.Net in NZ is looking at a way for people who want to use a charger to put themselves in queue. Usually, they will be first.....but if they aren't they would be told what their place in the queue was....and they would (perhaps) tag the charger with their RFID fob when they arrive and it would then start for them next when it becomes free. If they aren't there, they get bumped by whoever is actually there. No point having a free charger sitting there waiting for someone who hasn't arrived yet.

That's just one idea. It may happen that way or it may not.

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Scott3

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#1749843 29-Mar-2017 00:23

frednz:

Incidentally, what do you think of the i3? I know that the new price of the range extender model of $85,300 is very expensive for such a small vehicle, but as a concept, do you like this vehicle?

Thanks

Fred

I have one and it's awesome :)

Mine has the original battery size that gives it a 120-140km real world electric range, in addition to the petrol range extender (REX) and it 9L tank.

These cars aren't really in the same class as the Leaf's and Zoe's typically discussed here (as you would expect with the price point). For example the i3's body is carbon fiber (to reduce weight), it's RWD, and the peak motor power (125kW) is roughly double that of the Zoe. Also BMW has used a refrigerant based battery cooling system (Nissan & Renault use an air cooling system that is inferior, An issue because the batteries degrade faster when too hot)

Take one for a spin if you get the chance. Powerful acceleration in near silence with no shift shock is really neat. Regenerative braking is surprisingly powerful too.

On one hand it is the best of both worlds. You can use electricity most of the time, but not worry at all about running out of range as long as you can keep the petrol tank topped off. (petrol stations are still way more common and way faster than charging stations).

I have done a few trips out of the city for example when going from Auckland to Tauranga I basically got in the car drove a direct route. If I was reliant on fast chargers, I would have needed to go via Thames or Hamilton. Majority of the trip was done on electric. It is nice to not have to bother with fast charging (not that most of these are charged at a rate such that their cost of use is similar to that of running on petrol)

On the other hand it's the worst of both worlds. You have the weight (rex adds about 120kg), cost (REX adds around $6000) and complexity of two power sources. My i3 has seriously quick acceleration, I can only imagine what the the 120kg lighter version goes like.

Note that BMW markets the i3 as a "Mega city car" They have done a great job to that end, While it is really fun on the open road things like the firm seats, and stiff suspension show multi hour highway cruises weren't really the design intention. Plus, you would be stopping a lot of times to fill that 9L gas tank if you drove it to Wellington. Personally I would rather fly...

If you want a cheaper option with the same basic approach (but heaps less electric range) take a look at the outlander PHEV, or even a (used, now discontinued in RHD) Holden Volt / Chevy Volt / Vauxhall ampera. (may have to import your own of the latter from the UK as they don't come up on trademe very often)

Linuxluver

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#1750287 29-Mar-2017 16:56

Scott3:

frednz:

Incidentally, what do you think of the i3? I know that the new price of the range extender model of $85,300 is very expensive for such a small vehicle, but as a concept, do you like this vehicle?

Thanks

Fred

I have one and it's awesome :)

Mine has the original battery size that gives it a 120-140km real world electric range, in addition to the petrol range extender (REX) and it 9L tank.

These cars aren't really in the same class as the Leaf's and Zoe's typically discussed here (as you would expect with the price point). For example the i3's body is carbon fiber (to reduce weight), it's RWD, and the peak motor power (125kW) is roughly double that of the Zoe. Also BMW has used a refrigerant based battery cooling system (Nissan & Renault use an air cooling system that is inferior, An issue because the batteries degrade faster when too hot)

Take one for a spin if you get the chance. Powerful acceleration in near silence with no shift shock is really neat. Regenerative braking is surprisingly powerful too.

On one hand it is the best of both worlds. You can use electricity most of the time, but not worry at all about running out of range as long as you can keep the petrol tank topped off. (petrol stations are still way more common and way faster than charging stations).

I have done a few trips out of the city for example when going from Auckland to Tauranga I basically got in the car drove a direct route. If I was reliant on fast chargers, I would have needed to go via Thames or Hamilton. Majority of the trip was done on electric. It is nice to not have to bother with fast charging (not that most of these are charged at a rate such that their cost of use is similar to that of running on petrol)

On the other hand it's the worst of both worlds. You have the weight (rex adds about 120kg), cost (REX adds around $6000) and complexity of two power sources. My i3 has seriously quick acceleration, I can only imagine what the the 120kg lighter version goes like.

Note that BMW markets the i3 as a "Mega city car" They have done a great job to that end, While it is really fun on the open road things like the firm seats, and stiff suspension show multi hour highway cruises weren't really the design intention. Plus, you would be stopping a lot of times to fill that 9L gas tank if you drove it to Wellington. Personally I would rather fly...

If you want a cheaper option with the same basic approach (but heaps less electric range) take a look at the outlander PHEV, or even a (used, now discontinued in RHD) Holden Volt / Chevy Volt / Vauxhall ampera. (may have to import your own of the latter from the UK as they don't come up on trademe very often)

Love your posts, Scott. :-)

The BMW i3 REX looks like a good compromise. I'd probably fast charge it anyway....and limit the REX to those times when I just can't get there on battery alone even with the charging network. I like the EV driving too much to compromise now unless forced to. It would be nice to have the option over the next 2-3 years until the batteries are big enough and the charging stations adequately available. :-)

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frednz

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#1750346 29-Mar-2017 19:50

Scott3:

frednz:

Incidentally, what do you think of the i3? I know that the new price of the range extender model of $85,300 is very expensive for such a small vehicle, but as a concept, do you like this vehicle?

Thanks

Fred

I have one and it's awesome :)

Mine has the original battery size that gives it a 120-140km real world electric range, in addition to the petrol range extender (REX) and it 9L tank.

These cars aren't really in the same class as the Leaf's and Zoe's typically discussed here (as you would expect with the price point). For example the i3's body is carbon fiber (to reduce weight), it's RWD, and the peak motor power (125kW) is roughly double that of the Zoe. Also BMW has used a refrigerant based battery cooling system (Nissan & Renault use an air cooling system that is inferior, An issue because the batteries degrade faster when too hot)

Take one for a spin if you get the chance. Powerful acceleration in near silence with no shift shock is really neat. Regenerative braking is surprisingly powerful too.

On one hand it is the best of both worlds. You can use electricity most of the time, but not worry at all about running out of range as long as you can keep the petrol tank topped off. (petrol stations are still way more common and way faster than charging stations).

I have done a few trips out of the city for example when going from Auckland to Tauranga I basically got in the car drove a direct route. If I was reliant on fast chargers, I would have needed to go via Thames or Hamilton. Majority of the trip was done on electric. It is nice to not have to bother with fast charging (not that most of these are charged at a rate such that their cost of use is similar to that of running on petrol)

On the other hand it's the worst of both worlds. You have the weight (rex adds about 120kg), cost (REX adds around $6000) and complexity of two power sources. My i3 has seriously quick acceleration, I can only imagine what the the 120kg lighter version goes like.

Note that BMW markets the i3 as a "Mega city car" They have done a great job to that end, While it is really fun on the open road things like the firm seats, and stiff suspension show multi hour highway cruises weren't really the design intention. Plus, you would be stopping a lot of times to fill that 9L gas tank if you drove it to Wellington. Personally I would rather fly...

If you want a cheaper option with the same basic approach (but heaps less electric range) take a look at the outlander PHEV, or even a (used, now discontinued in RHD) Holden Volt / Chevy Volt / Vauxhall ampera. (may have to import your own of the latter from the UK as they don't come up on trademe very often)

Thanks a lot Scott for your very helpful post. Now that the 33 kWh battery 2017 model has extended the basic range to 183km, I guess it's less essential to pay the extra for the range extender, which ensures an overall range of at least 300km. But, I guess most people would like the reassurance of the extra electric range that the extender provides.

But, if you want a second-hand BMW i3, there are quite a few 2014 models with 120km - 250km range available at a cost of $45,000 upwards, depending on the condition etc. If I bought a second-hand model, I would definitely get one with the range extender.

Another BMW option is the 225xe, which is a plug-in hybrid with a max electric range of 30-40km. It costs $68,500 new and has a 36 litre petrol tank so range anxiety is not an issue with this vehicle. However, I can understand why enthusiasts (and people concerned for the health of the planet) want to buy pure electric vehicles. The 225xe has a "save battery mode" which looks like it's able to use the combustion engine to charge the battery as you drive (is that correct)?

Regards

Fred

frednz

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#1750352 29-Mar-2017 20:23

tripper1000:

frednz:

Thanks for this very good advice. I think a lot of people still have "range anxiety" with regard to "pure" electric vehicles, even though their range is gradually increasing. In this article about the new $60,000 28kWh Hyundai Ioniq pure electric vehicle it says that

...the five-door liftback, which is about the same size as a Hyundai Elantra, goes on sale with an entry price of $59,990 - thousands of dollars less than the EVs that have entered the Kiwi new vehicle market so far.

And secondly, Hyundai New Zealand claims that range anxiety is much less of an issue with the Ioniq. On a full charge it has a range of up to 200 kilometres, which makes it more than an urban commuter, and suitable also for normal use in regional and rural New Zealand.

In a test drive of the Ioniq between Queenstown and Glenorchy (a return distance of about 170k), it was reported that on the way back into Queenstown,

... the Ioniq began to panic, telling us that our battery charge was running critically low. We began to panic too, responding by completely turning off the air conditioning, gently using the brakes as much as we could as we approached intersections, and even not using the car's indicators.

As a result, we got to our destination, with an indicated 7 kilometres of battery charge left.

That was too close for comfort - our frayed nerves told us so. But at the same time the exercise proved to us that a range of upwards of 200km can be achieved in this electric car, and that the on-board computers are exceptionally accurate in advising how much juice is left and what is the remaining range.

This article might indicate to some buyers that owning a pure electric vehicle is great for running around town, but for longer distances, you really need a car with petrol back-up so that the "range anxiety" reported in the above test drive is avoided.

Fred

Thanks for the links. That "Range Anxiety" article is what you get when you get a creative writer doing technical reviews. They did their maths, the car performed exactly as predicted, the journey was completed - just like any other boring journey in any conventional car. I feel the "anxiety" in the article was for the sake of entertainment of the masses by playing up prejudices.

At the end of the day, the only difference in thinking between electric and petrol is that the number you are planning "refuels" around, changes from ~500kms to ~200kms. No new skills are needed.

Range Anxiety is nothing new - a former girlfriend of mine used to fill up with gas at 1/2 a tank because she "didn't want to run out of gas on the motorway".

I think the max range quoted by Hyundai for the Ioniq pure electric vehicle is about 200km, and after completing the 170km journey between Queenstown and Glenorchy there was only 7km range left. Sure, the Ioniq got close to achieving 200km, but I would have been a bit disappointed that the full 200km range wasn't fully achieved. However, I realise that EV range can be affected by many factors, including the terrain, the speed travelled at, the weather, air conditioning, heating, etc. etc.

As a potential purchaser, what I learned from the article was that, if I owned the Ioniq, I would allow for a range of no more than 150km if charging stations were not readily available along the way! However, I guess that experienced pure EV owners might regard this as a bit too conservative and that they might regard it as a challenge to maximise range! And after a year or so, I guess owners have to allow for the normal depletion of the battery's range, even though this might be quite small in the first couple of years (a point to be taken into account when buying a second-hand EV).

Fred

Linuxluver

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#1752809 1-Apr-2017 17:58

frednz:

...

As a potential purchaser, what I learned from the article was that, if I owned the Ioniq, I would allow for a range of no more than 150km if charging stations were not readily available along the way! However, I guess that experienced pure EV owners might regard this as a bit too conservative and that they might regard it as a challenge to maximise range! And after a year or so, I guess owners have to allow for the normal depletion of the battery's range, even though this might be quite small in the first couple of years (a point to be taken into account when buying a second-hand EV).

Fred

That's a prudent approach and I'd probably be right there with you doing the same with an unfamiliar car.

Also bare in mind you can stop for an hour or two any most campgrounds and charge up at 16amp for $2-$5......which can be a gap-fillers if you're not too sure about the route.

I'll be doing that between Greymouth and Christchurch. Definitely charging for 2-3 hours at Jacksons Point.....and may have to stop at Springfield as well as it looks VERY close trying to get from Jacksons Point to Christchurch......even if I only average 80kph.

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Linuxluver

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#1753216 2-Apr-2017 15:23

Hyundai says they want to roll out an all-electric SUV next year.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-hyundai-motor-electric-idUSKBN17107N

Extract: "Hyundai will launch an electric SUV, followed by a sibling model by Kia Motors next year, Lee said, citing strong demand for SUVs.
The subcompact or compact models would have a range of more than 300 km (186 miles) per charge, and would be "more competitive" than rival offerings, Lee said."

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Linuxluver

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#1753219 2-Apr-2017 15:45

Mercedes drops hydrogen fuel cells (6 weeks after announcing a fuel cell agreement with Toyota and BMW).

Faster EV charging, falling EV battery costs and the continuing high cost of hydrogen have removed the competitive edge hydrogen fuel cells once had.

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#1753231 2-Apr-2017 16:08

Linuxluver:

Mercedes drops hydrogen fuel cells (6 weeks after announcing a fuel cell agreement with Toyota and BMW).

Faster EV charging, falling EV battery costs and the continuing high cost of hydrogen have removed the competitive edge hydrogen fuel cells once had.

This is what I have been arguing would happen. Happy to see it happening now. :)

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