Outlander PHEV - 65% battery health after 4 years

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Outlander PHEV - 65% battery health after 4 years - reasonable?

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#2739203 5-Jul-2021 14:22

What was the warrenty for your car?

This guy in Oz looked into things quite a lot and basically Mitsubishi global wont admit or fix any problems
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E-EBVOPGfg

The degradation doesnt seem like actual cell issues but a BMS one that regularly drops the SOH. It cant be updated either.

The pack/cells is undervolted and almost never drops below 30% or goes above 90-95%, cells are afik charged to 4.1v max not 4.2 etc.

6x5 SOH should be a warranty case but you will likely have to take them to court.

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#2739235 5-Jul-2021 16:30

not worth taking to court.

cost starts at $20k and goes up from there.

Disputes tribunal cheap ...

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#2739240 5-Jul-2021 16:46

Advice given to date: Motor vehicle tribunal will be primary venue over disputes tribunal.
Benefits include: higher cap for compensation, having an expert mechanic in the room and lower filing fees.

Sadly, this means taking the dealer (who has been helpful) instead of Mitsubishi NZ to the tribunal. I’m still hoping that the dealer will spring a rabbit out of the hat but it’s probably 80% probability that a resolution will not be reached.

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#2739256 5-Jul-2021 17:04

in that case it depends on whether it's worth ruining your relationship with the dealer.

maybe if another tribunal can take it to MMNZ even with a lower cap that could be the way to go? i doubt the tribunal will give you a new battery or make a ruling of $26k if your car is 4 years old.

lastly ... Fair Go !

To be honest I don't think the car value is affected by the battery health ... I see dealers selling 10 year old hybrids and PHEVs for mega $$$ like it's the hottest thing on the planet. those poor buyers ...

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#2739263 5-Jul-2021 17:37

cokemaster: Advice given to date: Motor vehicle tribunal will be primary venue over disputes tribunal.
Benefits include: higher cap for compensation, having an expert mechanic in the room and lower filing fees.

Sadly, this means taking the dealer (who has been helpful) instead of Mitsubishi NZ to the tribunal. I’m still hoping that the dealer will spring a rabbit out of the hat but it’s probably 80% probability that a resolution will not be reached.

Maybe it's now time to ask the dealer to overtrade your vehicle in on another Mitsubishi that you will feel confident in.

Speaking from experience, once you start the litigation route, relationships get soured, and everyone loses (financially and emotionally)

A good quote to ponder... "You may win the battle; however, you may lose the war."

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#2739272 5-Jul-2021 17:50

Batman:

in that case it depends on whether it's worth ruining your relationship with the dealer.

maybe if another tribunal can take it to MMNZ even with a lower cap that could be the way to go? i doubt the tribunal will give you a new battery or make a ruling of $26k if your car is 4 years old.

lastly ... Fair Go !

To be honest I don't think the car value is affected by the battery health ... I see dealers selling 10 year old hybrids and PHEVs for mega $$$ like it's the hottest thing on the planet. those poor buyers ...

It is highly likely that the dealership has some kind of arrangement with Mitsubishi NZ regarding the any costs arising from CGA claims being passed back up the chain.

Regardless, I don't know if a relationship with a car dealer is something of value to maintain.

Not sure of the basis for your statement regarding the new battery of $26k being an unlikely aware from the tribunal. If it is decided that the traction battery is not of acceptable quality, a new traction battery seems to be the obvious remedy. Mitsubishi's pricing policy isn't really of any of the tribunal or buyers concern in this circumstance. ($26.5k is a lot of money to ask for a 13.8kWh battery pack in 2021.).

Regarding Megabux for decade used Hybrids & PHEV's, and poor buyers, I wouldn't put all models in the same basket. Toyota / Lexus hybrids have a great reputation for lasting a long time (Mine is 15 years old and going strong). As a PHEV example the Holden / Chevy Volt has has a reputation of great battery lifespan.

Outlander PHEV's haven't been around for a decade yet, but 2013 models are fairly cheap in my book. Here is a 2013 with a 80% SOH battery, asking $20,800 before the $2300 rebate it is eligible for. Assume it will sell quickly:

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/mitsubishi/listing/3137157020

Not sure about out-lander PHEV's, but with Nissan leaf's, battery health has a massive impact on used car value.

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#2739293 5-Jul-2021 19:11

Fundamentally, having a good relationship with the dealer is nice but doesn’t kill the desire to put things right.
I’ve browsed this very topic with the dealer - they’re keen to push Mitsubishi NZ again to try and get this covered as a warranty repair.

Ironically, they indicated that a full battery failure would be more desirable in getting Mitsubishi NZ across the line. They also raised the possibility of offering trade pricing and discounted labour costs which whilst a positive step isn’t a remedy that I’d be prepared to pay for. Particularly when Mitsubishi don’t want to own any battery durability issues, I could be in the same boat in four years time.

Will be checking in with them tomorrow afternoon regarding getting Mitsubishi to cover it. If pushed to the wall - the motor vehicle tribunal will be logical place to go.

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#2739340 5-Jul-2021 22:07

I try not to double post but thats a really good trademe find @Scott3. Assuming that it is the factory install, a 80% SOH on a 2013 model with 166K KM provides an excellent contrast to what I have (2017 Outlander, 65.5% SOH with 80K KM).

There are some variables - eg. the amount of EV vs Petrol driving but worth bringing up nevertheless as it shows that at least some of these cars can do the distance without abnormal degradation.

A quick search on trademe shows:

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/mitsubishi/listing/3137157020 (Link you posted) - 2013 Outlander, 80% SOH with 166K KM.
https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/mitsubishi/outlander/listing/3152947541 - 2013 Outlander, 94.7% SOH with 115K KM.
https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/mitsubishi/outlander/listing/3062605809 - 2015 Outlander, 83% SOH with 76.9K KM

And there are some lower KM models with relatively high battery wear:
https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/mitsubishi/outlander/listing/3050393829 - 2014 Outlander, 87% SOH with 27.5K KM
https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/mitsubishi/outlander/listing/3128660206 - 2016 Outlander, 80.5% SOH with 12.6K KM

I for one, would not be happy to pick up a 80.5% SOH battery with only 12.6K KM on the clock!

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#2739347 5-Jul-2021 23:02

basically a lottery when you buy a new car with a battery - better to buy used - you know which way the cookie has crumbled

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#2739349 5-Jul-2021 23:26

And that’s the thing - it shouldn’t be an lottery. Or if it is - it is made clear upfront with “acceptable” (and subsequently priced) decay predictions.

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robbyp

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#2739406 6-Jul-2021 00:26

Maybe the government rebate should only apply to EV manufacturers that offer good long warranties on their batteries, and they are economic to replace. Especially considering we keep their cars for years, a lot longer than they do in many other countries.

I fear cars aren't going to last as long as petrol equivalents, because of depleted batteries, and it not being economic to replace. So we could to end up with a lot of cars with almost dead batteries, that may do a few kms, but are going to be next to useless and worthless, and all that waste to get rid of..

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#2739446 6-Jul-2021 09:01

I hope you get a good resolution from the dealer or MMNZ. My first post in this topic was probably a bit TL;DR so I'll reiterate the basics as I understand them from reading many Outlander PHEV forum posts:

There is good evidence that among EVs and PHEVs, the Outlander has exceptionally unreliable Battery Management Unit (BMU) estimating of health. It's a controversial topic but I'm convinced. Two things indicate this:

First, there are many reports of owners gradually increasing their SOH - and electric range - over time by altering charging patterns. The SOH is adjusted every several days to few weeks, and (as far as I've seen) it always goes up or down by 0.1 Ah or 0.5 Ah. The small 0.1 Ah decreases are the most common, and of course the 0.5 increases are rare - I've only seen one on my car, but I don't bother to check the Ah value via the OBD2 port very often these days so it's possible I've missed one or two of them. Apparently there are ways to boost the frequency/probability of the SOH adjustments that increase rather than decrease the value.

Second, there are reports of owners taking the drastic step of tricking their BMU into forgetting its memory, causing a reset to 100% SOH (38 Ah or whatever it is) and getting a substantial increase in their electric range. I expect this is not without risk. (It's also a reason I disagree with the comment "better to buy used" someone else made a few posts earlier. A five year old car with 80% SOH and no verified historical data might just be one that degraded to 60% SOH, was reset to 100% several months ago, and has rapidly degraded back to 80% since. The degradation curve from 100% is very steep in the first several months and then it flattens out.)

If the Outlander battery estimation was accurate, neither of these methods of increasing SOH would have any significant increase in electric range. So, your battery may actually be significantly degraded, or it may be far healthier than the car thinks it is.

(Edited for grammar right after posting.)

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#2739449 6-Jul-2021 09:04

I see. So you can hack the SOH.

I see where this is going with used cars....

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#2739737 6-Jul-2021 15:06

Update from Mitsubishi via the Dealer: A 65.5% battery over 4 years is considered normal and within margins. They will not entertain coverage under warranty or under discretion.

I will be formally engaging the dealership regarding their consumer guarantee act obligations tonight.

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#2739884 6-Jul-2021 19:23

What a bunch of twats. The funny thing is that I was pretty close to buying an outlander a few weeks back and just got busy. Then I saw this post and I won't even give it another thought, even with their 2021 model which may be better and have a better warranty but the way they have treated you - no way.

It may only be one sale to them but it's one less and more money going into another car dealers pocket (mmm Tesla, ha ha).

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