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cokemaster

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#288380 24-Jun-2021 22:43
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Hi all, 

 

Keen to do a bit of a straw poll - do you think that this is reasonable degradation? 

 

Outlander PHEV

 

  • 82K KM on the odo.
  • 4 years old. Brought new in 2017.
  • 0 fast charges (it doesn't have the plug).
  • Battery capacity now at 65.5%

I have the full text based dianostics from the battery controller - very little variation across the cells, indicating that the entire battery is starting to show its age. Keen to get everyones thoughts before I start the 'next steps' (eg. I've collected quite a bit of the warranty and battery degradation representations from the wayback machine before they removed it from the website). 





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Batman
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  #2734041 24-Jun-2021 23:07
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it's doing a bit better than my iphone. that's why you want 8 year warranty on the battery i guess





Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


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  #2734045 24-Jun-2021 23:19
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I have heard the battery degradation on a 2017 car (different brand) was probably similar. Although probably a higher mileage, but it doesn't surprise me. But what this does show is that second hand EVs may  not be good options for many unless the battery can be cheaply replaced or reconditioned, otherwise people are going to get poor range. So I can't see EVs having anywhere near the same life as petrol cars, and this potentially could mean more waste being generated. 


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  #2734046 24-Jun-2021 23:21
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cokemaster:

 

Hi all, 

 

Keen to do a bit of a straw poll - do you think that this is reasonable degradation? 

 

Outlander PHEV

 

  • 82K KM on the odo.
  • 4 years old. Brought new in 2017.
  • 0 fast charges (it doesn't have the plug).
  • Battery capacity now at 65.5%

I have the full text based dianostics from the battery controller - very little variation across the cells, indicating that the entire battery is starting to show its age. Keen to get everyones thoughts before I start the 'next steps' (eg. I've collected quite a bit of the warranty and battery degradation representations from the wayback machine before they removed it from the website). 

 

 

is the battery still under warranty?





Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.




gzt

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  #2734048 24-Jun-2021 23:34
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Is this a fresh import / import / NZ new?

cokemaster

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  #2734064 25-Jun-2021 07:38
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It was a NZ new, not secondhand. Literally had 3km on the clock when I took possession.
I brought it just before they came out with the 8 year battery warranty.




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heapsort
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  #2734065 25-Jun-2021 07:55
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I'm interested to see how you get on with this because I have a similar age Outlander PHEV, but with less distance driven (44,000 km) and higher capacity (76%). I'll add what I know of battery issues for this vehicle but first a few questions. Do you have any data collated over the past few years or just the current diagnostics? Re your capacity percentage, what is that in a direct measurement? (It's usually measured in Ah, and I would guess 100% is 40 Ah so 65.5% = 26.2 Ah?) What electric range are you typically seeing from a full charge?

 

The site phevwatchdog.net shows that for pre-2018 models that have driven around 82,000 km, there are battery capacity observations in the range 23 to 36 Ah. So 26 Ah (if that's what yours has) is well below average, but not the lowest.

 

There are vast amounts of discussion and information on the Internet about Outlander PHEV battery life, some of it useful and some potentially dangerous. Here's how I would summarise it.

 

There is evidence - much debated, but very convincing in my opinion - that older Outlander PHEV models (even up to 2019-ish?) have particularly poor battery management logic that underestimates the real capacity, limiting electric range far more than it needs to in order to protect battery health. (The evidence for this is that people have found ways to train or trick their battery into greater capacity, which I'll mention below.) It degrades very fast for the first year or so, then tails off to a slow decline, but still much faster than any other EV or PHEV on the market to my knowledge. However, it isn't a strictly non-increasing curve: the capacity is adjusted by decreases of 0.1 or 0.5 Ah, but it can also (less frequently) increase 0.1 or 0.5 Ah.

 

Some people have found they can "train" their vehicle to have more of the increase adjustments, and increase their electric range over time. The Richi Jennings Mitsubishi Outlander FAQ has a good description of this.

 

Others have found ways to trick the battery management unit into forgetting all its data and reverting back to its initial state, and found their electric driving range is greatly improved - even close to near-new. There are various methods (one's called Dublin, I don't know the others) to do this. I've never tried it, and it's probably a last resort (certainly not while a warranty claim is a possibility) because I would expect great care needs to be taken afterwards to avoid damaging the battery by draining it too far.

 

I own a 2017 model (with ChaDeMo for fast charging but I've almost never used that) that I bought ex-demo in Feb 2018 with 200 km on the clock. I've driven it 44,000 km since. For the first couple of years I frequently checked the capacity with an ODB2 adapter and the Android "PHEV Watchdog" app. It degraded to 31 Ah, approx 78%. Your post got me curious so I used the app for the first time in over a year this morning, and it's 30.3 Ah or around 76%.

 

My electric range without air-conditioning: 42 to 50 km in the first year - weather and temperature affect range by several kilometres - and around 32 to 38 km now. Overall I'm happy with mine, for now, because it still achieves my pre-purchase targets of 30 km electric range and under 1.5 L/100km fuel economy. But I'm very interested to hear of any experiences with battery warranty claims, in case that are something I need to consider in the future.


heapsort
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  #2734070 25-Jun-2021 08:23
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One extra point: from the info in the original post, it's difficult to suggest whether the degradation is a "normal" amount for this vehicle. It's possible to drive an Outlander PHEV 80,000 km in a few years with very little petrol use, e.g. charging from near empty to full twice a day if there's charging available at both ends of a daily commute. I expect that would degrade the battery much more than generally plugging it in only once a day overnight.




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  #2734071 25-Jun-2021 08:28
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heapsort:

 

One extra point: from the info in the original post, it's difficult to suggest whether the degradation is a "normal" amount for this vehicle. It's possible to drive an Outlander PHEV 80,000 km in a few years with very little petrol use, e.g. charging from near empty to full twice a day if there's charging available at both ends of a daily commute. I expect that would degrade the battery much more than generally plugging it in only once a day overnight.

 

 

I read that here or elsewhere. You can use a lot of cycles compared to a vehicle with a 250km range. Each cycle is wear. 


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  #2734072 25-Jun-2021 08:31
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According to battery university a LiIon battery should survive 300 - 500 full charge cycles. You've had the car 4 years / 1460 days. How many charge cycles have you done in that time?

 

Charging to about 80% and not letting battery drop below about 30% is meant to significantly extend the life of the cells. Have you done anything like that? Details on the link above.


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  #2734077 25-Jun-2021 08:45
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timmmay:

 

According to battery university a LiIon battery should survive 300 - 500 full charge cycles. You've had the car 4 years / 1460 days. How many charge cycles have you done in that time?

 

Charging to about 80% and not letting battery drop below about 30% is meant to significantly extend the life of the cells. Have you done anything like that? Details on the link above.

 

 

Internally, the car already does this. "Empty" (when the battery indicator shows nothing left, and the engine automatically kicks in) is around 30%. "Full" isn't the absolute maximum capacity either - not sure what but maybe 90-95%.


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  #2734078 25-Jun-2021 08:49
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heapsort:

 

Internally, the car already does this. "Empty" (when the battery indicator shows nothing left, and the engine automatically kicks in) is around 30%. "Full" isn't the absolute maximum capacity either - not sure what but maybe 90-95%.

 

 

That's useful. Being able to set your own maximum fill percentage / cell voltage might give people with lower range needs longer battery lifespan. 90 or 95% is quite high. I only charge my phone to 80% for example, because I'm never far from a charger and it lasts at least a day from there anyway.


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  #2734082 25-Jun-2021 08:57
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Would be fair to assume 80% of the 82k would be on electric and probably 0-100% charging about 6 days a week.

In 2021, the demand on the battery has actually increased where I do 2x charges dropping the kids off and picking them up. I’m finding the Km range doesn’t come close to reflecting reality at times. Getting 30-38km Ac off and 25-28 ac on.




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  #2734086 25-Jun-2021 09:02
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cokemaster: Would be fair to assume 80% of the 82k would be on electric and probably 0-100% charging about 6 days a week.

In 2021, the demand on the battery has actually increased where I do 2x charges dropping the kids off and picking them up. I’m finding the Km range doesn’t come close to reflecting reality at times. Getting 30-38km Ac off and 25-28 ac on.

 

If you bought it *just* before the 8 year battery warranty extension, I'd ask them to include your vehicle in that program and help you out. It's worth at least asking (management) about that.

 

 


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  #2734091 25-Jun-2021 09:09
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cokemaster: Would be fair to assume 80% of the 82k would be on electric and probably 0-100% charging about 6 days a week.

In 2021, the demand on the battery has actually increased where I do 2x charges dropping the kids off and picking them up. I’m finding the Km range doesn’t come close to reflecting reality at times. Getting 30-38km Ac off and 25-28 ac on.

 

Given you've used it a lot, the current capacity sounds about right. I think it's worth asking them about it though, because a car should really last a lot longer than that.


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  #2734095 25-Jun-2021 09:27
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mattwnz: But what this does show is that second hand EVs may  not be good options for many unless the battery can be cheaply replaced or reconditioned, otherwise people are going to get poor range.


That's what irked me with the minister at the announcement being pressured to answer why they think it's a great idea now. His answer, the market has many affordable/cheaper EVs like leafs available to everyone now

..Nevermind it'll have disappointing range compared to new and cost you 14K in a years ownership to replace batteries.

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