EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

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#2941595 13-Jul-2022 19:05

mattwnz:… If more hybrids allowed pure EV for short distances, eg 80km, like the Toyota Rav 4 Prime, and were plugin too, it could be a good stopgap. The problem IMO is battery costs at the moment, so hybrids is a cheap stopgap.

Anything like 80km (or way, way less than that) on battery alone is going to have be be a PHEV: I previously had seriously contemplated a PHEV (Outlander) as I thought at the time it would give me the best of both worlds, but got educated out of that way of thinking! (Partly from feedback on GZ.) Apart from the high initial purchase cost, I can’t think of many downsides of deciding to go with a full EV.

Anyway, here’s a short video from Rory Reid I watched earlier this week on PHEVs which I reckon is worth a watch; he picks up on many of the reasons why I ended up dismissing the idea of buying one.

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#2941608 13-Jul-2022 19:58

jonathan18: Anything like 80km (or way, way less than that) on battery alone is going to have be be a PHEV: I previously had seriously contemplated a PHEV (Outlander) as I thought at the time it would give me the best of both worlds, but got educated out of that way of thinking! (Partly from feedback on GZ.) Apart from the high initial purchase cost, I can’t think of many downsides of deciding to go with a full EV.

Anyway, here’s a short video from Rory Reid I watched earlier this week on PHEVs which I reckon is worth a watch; he picks up on many of the reasons why I ended up dismissing the idea of buying one.

Fully charged did a good episode on why their channel doesn't even cover hybrids anymore, especially plug in ones. As battery range in BEVs has gone up the need for phevs has declined, most of them only have small batteries that don't offer much range and when you run out you are carrying around weighty batteries that hit the efficiency of the ice half of the car. While it's a half full glass for some getting Bev cost the glass is also half empty with the complexity of the engines and additional weight. Unless you can plug in every time you deplete the battery to make the most of the cheap mileage they don't offer much over a regular hybrid.

I'm hoping a few factors will start to reduce the entry point soon for EVs. Firstly the cheaper brands like mg and byd in a few years will hit the second hand market, when a $40k after the rebates car goes up second hand if the world starts going back to normal at all the price of older models like the leaf should come down a bit and lose that premium tier pricing they still have. Secondly as other have noted, until now the prices have stagnated in favour of better technology, I feel like with 50-70kwh packs in cars we are reaching the point that the range is generally good enough for most people. My ice only did 450km before we felt the need to fill it up so an ev going that far would be fine, and at that distance you'd stop on a trip anyway so could too up as needed. So if the prices continue downwards but we are no longer increasing the capacity those saving should behind to find their way on to the car pricing.

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#2941678 13-Jul-2022 23:35

I got an email from chargenet today saying they've partnered with AA smartfuel to offer some discounts on charging. For every 1c off a litre of petrol you can now convert it to a 25c credit for charging.

https://charge.net.nz/aa-smartfuel/

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#2941679 13-Jul-2022 23:35

alasta:

I'm not sure that I would gain much from a hybrid because the vast majority of my driving is on highways where convention powertrains tend to be pretty efficient. If the premium for a hybrid were less than $5k then it might be worth considering.

While it is not like in heavy city traffic, where a hybrid can use half the fuel of a similar petrol car, Hybrids do fine on the open road.

For Toyota hybrids, generally about a 20% fuel saving would be expected. They do lots of things that help with fuel consumption:

Engine no longer needs to be tuned for peak power, as electric bit's chip in and help with that, as such they can be tuned for efficiency, even doing things like running Atkinson cycles.
Can shut down engine when coasting, gentle decent etc.
Toyota eCVT is pretty clever at keeping the engine in an efficient RPM range.
Re-gen down hills

Price premium varies by brand, some brands like Suzuki & Subaru charge a lot for pretty disappointing hybrid system's.

But for most models where hybrid systems are available on the configuration you want, if you are shopping for a new car, it is pretty much a no brainier to get the hybrid version, if one exists in the car / trim you are looking at.

I can't find the article again, but a couple of year's ago, something like 80% of rav4 buyers were ticking the hybrid box.

Some examples

Rav4 GLX AWD ($45,990 + 0 clean car fee) - 7.0L/100km combined cycle.
Rav4 GLX Hybrid AWD ($49990 - 2387.24 clean car rebate) - 5.3L P-WLTP

$1612.76 Price premium after rebate. @ $3/L fuel, payback is just 32,000km. Note the hybrid is more powerfull than the non hybrid

Yairs GX ($27990 - 2129.48 clean car rebate) 5.4L/100km
Yaris GX hybrid ($30990 - 4294.66 clean car rebate) 3.6L/100km

$834.82 premium. Payback after 15,500km. Same spec, similar power

Jazz Life ($28000 + $950ORC - $1150 rebate) 6.4L/100km wltp
Jazz e:HEV Luxe (36000 + 950 - 4140 rebate) 3.8L/100km wltp 2.6

$5010 Premium, 64,230km payback. Note the Luxe is a higher spec, with leather seats etc, and is a little more powerfull (72kW vs 80kW)

Scott3

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#2941683 13-Jul-2022 23:52

mattwnz:

It appears a lot of new cars are moving to at least be hybrid. I think most new Toyotas will soon be hybrids. If more hybrids allowed pure EV for short distances, eg 80km, like the Toyota Rav 4 Prime, and were plugin too, it could be a good stopgap. The problem IMO is battery costs at the moment, so hybrids is a cheap stopgap. It sort of reminds me of TVs that used to have both digital and analogue receivers in them when freeview was first introduced, to manage the transition between technologies.

Yes, Toyota is moving much of it's lineup towards hybrids, I think this is on the back of customer demand, but also in perpetration for the clean car standard which when it kicks in will penalize automakers who's fleet average emissions exceed a (fairly low) limit. Toyota moves a lot of vehicles that will be over the limit (Land cruiser Prado / 70 / 300, Fortuner, Hilux, Hiace, and performance stuff in their GR range), so it is in their interest to slash emissions elsewhere in their fleet.

Corolla Hatch & Sedan, Camry Sedan, and Highlander SUV is now hybrid only.

Yaris & Yaris cross only have the base trim available as a non hybrid.

Rav4 and CR-H have a good mix of both.

On 80km being a short distance, it's actually pretty far, not much less than the entire range of my 2014 nissan leaf. Will need cira 14kWh useable battery pack to get that sort of range. Which is hundreds of KG's, and thousands of dollars of battery.

This makes non plug in hybrids (with sub 2kWh batteries) a completly different category of car to plug in hybrids.

Agree that we need more plug in hybrids with decent (cira 80km) ranges though.

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#2941692 14-Jul-2022 07:19

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#2941710 14-Jul-2022 09:04

Scott3:

Some examples

Rav4 GLX AWD ($45,990 + 0 clean car fee) - 7.0L/100km combined cycle.
Rav4 GLX Hybrid AWD ($49990 - 2387.24 clean car rebate) - 5.3L P-WLTP

$1612.76 Price premium after rebate. @ $3/L fuel, payback is just 32,000km. Note the hybrid is more powerfull than the non hybrid

From the Toyota NZ website

RAV4 (To nearest $1000)

GX $39K. GX Hybrid $47K

GXL(FWD) $42K. GXL(AWD) $46K. GXL Hybrid $50K

Limited $50K. Limited Hybrid $58K

While the AWD muddies things a bit, it is a niche vehicle that most people won’t consider. For most trim levels the difference is $8000 - $2387, which extends the payback to about 100000km (using your figures).

Disappointing, because when the difference was $3000 it was easy to justify the hybrid.

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Scott3

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#2941834 14-Jul-2022 14:18

Dingbatt:

Scott3:

Some examples

Rav4 GLX AWD ($45,990 + 0 clean car fee) - 7.0L/100km combined cycle.
Rav4 GLX Hybrid AWD ($49990 - 2387.24 clean car rebate) - 5.3L P-WLTP

$1612.76 Price premium after rebate. @ $3/L fuel, payback is just 32,000km. Note the hybrid is more powerfull than the non hybrid

From the Toyota NZ website

RAV4 (To nearest $1000)

GX $39K. GX Hybrid $47K

GXL(FWD) $42K. GXL(AWD) $46K. GXL Hybrid $50K

Limited $50K. Limited Hybrid $58K

While the AWD muddies things a bit, it is a niche vehicle that most people won’t consider. For most trim levels the difference is $8000 - $2387, which extends the payback to about 100000km (using your figures).

Disappointing, because when the difference was $3000 it was easy to justify the hybrid.

I picked the closest match available for my comparison.

I don't think it is fair to compare the 127kW FWD, 800kg tow rating versions of the Rav4, with the 163kW AWD, 1500kg tow rating hybrid version. The AWD non hybrid version is the closest match.

I did include the following in my comment "if one exists in the car / trim you are looking at". Toyota does not sell a 2wd rav4 hybrid in NZ.

Regardless, I think the $5,613 premium is worth it. Fuel economy goes from 6.7 -> 5.3 L/100km.

The smaller 2.0L engine 2wd is a little more economical than the 2.5L AWD, so the 1.4L/100km fuel economy difference is a smaller than what I used in the AWD to AWD comparison.

@$3/L, this works out to a 134,000km payback. Less than half than the life I would expect from the vehicle. And to boot, you get the more powerful AWD power-train.

I get that not everybody wants of needs AWD on their soft SUV, and 127kW is adequate power, but when the 163kW option is essentially paid for by fuel savings, why not...

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#2942084 15-Jul-2022 09:54

RIP to the Nissan Leaf

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#2942115 15-Jul-2022 10:48

Obraik:

RIP to the Nissan Leaf

Well... the in production Leafs still don't have thermal management so it's nostalgic but not entirely unwelcome. We don't need a bigger pile of batteries dying an early death to feed the coal-rollers.

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#2942123 15-Jul-2022 11:04

Obraik:

RIP to the Nissan Leaf

The article is US-centric. The article it is based on is paywalled.

So it's unclear if Nissan is shutting down the Leaf completely, or just in the USA.

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#2942125 15-Jul-2022 11:08

frankv:

The article is US-centric. The article it is based on is paywalled.

So it's unclear if Nissan is shutting down the Leaf completely, or just in the USA.

Honestly tho, the Leaf is barely present here as a new vehicle as well for similar reasons it's not doing well in the US. As a new vehicle it's overpriced compared to the likes of MG, BYD and not far off the price for a Model 3, while using basically the same tech it had 10 years ago. On top of that, like in the US, people here prefer utes and SUVs.

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#2942128 15-Jul-2022 11:20

Personally, when it comes time to replace my wife's current G1.1 Leaf I'd think twice before buying another Leaf, for the reason covered in SaltyNZ's comment above. Sure, it's been a great car for her, (and the wider family, as it's what we use in the weekend, though that will change when my car turns up...) and has resulted in us making the decision to go (and, I assume, stay) fully electric with both our cars. But our Leaf has been one of those subject to a significant reduction in range in the 4.5 years we've owned it: no doubt the nearly exclusive fast charging it was subject to in Japan played a big role in this. And it's only done something like 70k.

Whether I can stick to this intent will depend strongly on the cost of other EVs at the time we come to replace it. It's a daily runabout so not worth buying new; it'll be interesting to see what today's MG HZs and Atto 3s perform like and cost in a few years (though I'd be surprised if my wife could cope with the Atto's interior!).

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#2942129 15-Jul-2022 11:21

As far as I’m aware LEAF stands for Leading, Environmentally Friendly, Affordable, Family Car.

Leading: Not anymore.

Environmentally Friendly: Not the way it chews through batteries compared to other EVs. (Yes, better than ICE tho’)

Affordable: Not compared to newer (mainly Chinese) EVs.

Family Car: Yes you can fit a family and some cargo in it, but there are better ones.

So Nissan would be remiss to exit the sector. Maybe just retire the name.

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#2942140 15-Jul-2022 11:57

A shame they can't just rebirth it as a cheaper LFP model, with a few cabin upgrades and let it soldier on.

An entry-level cooling system for an LFP pack, a decent onboard charger as standard and an adjustable steering column may well have been enough to give it a bit more longevity. But functionally it is still the same car it was in 2017.

Five years is a long time.

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