EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

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#3115266 13-Aug-2023 13:40

MikeB4:

My wife drove a BYD Atto last week and loved it. She thinks we should get one as a secondary vehicle. I mentioned to her the apparent fire risk with this brand but she still loves the idea.

BYD blade batteries are LFP and supposed to be one of the(if not the) safest batteries.

Have a look at some proper puncture/torture tests of LFP (aka Lithium Iron Phosphate/LiFePo4) batteries of various brands (inc BYD blade) on youtube versus Li-ion (aka Lithium ternary or Lithium NCM/Lithium Nickel Cobalt Manganese) batteries. LFP is very stable and resistant to combustion when heated or punctured compared to the other types.

BYD make batteries for many other EV brands - e.g. The Berlin built Tesla have BYD blade LFP batteries.

I think BYD have been getting quite a bit of anti EV/anti China media coverage, but I saw a quite interesting article where BYD still make a lot of Hybrid/Plug-in hybrid vehicles and seem to have a big problem with petrol based fires and it appears this is just being attributed (wrongly) to their EVs.

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SaltyNZ

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#3115273 13-Aug-2023 14:15

HarmLessSolutions:

MikeB4:

A quick Google search will reveal the unfolding issue with BYD vehicles spontaneously combusting.

With many of those reports linking back to serpentza's YouTube presentations. His bad relationship with the CCP is more the basis for these stories than any real evidence with the EVs he is calling out being misidentified for starters.

Hec, a quick Google search will reveal the unfolding issue with Jaguars spontaneously combusting.

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robjg63

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#3115296 13-Aug-2023 15:46

HarmLessSolutions: A quick Google search will reveal the unfolding issue with BYD vehicles spontaneously combusting.

MikeB4: With many of those reports linking back to serpentza's YouTube presentations. His bad relationship with the CCP is more the basis for these stories than any real evidence with the EVs he is calling out being misidentified for starters.

SaltyNZ: Hec, a quick Google search will reveal the unfolding issue with Jaguars spontaneously combusting.

LG Energy Solution Lithium-ion batteries strikes again. As also used in the Chevy Bolt which also had issues with combusting batteries.

LG had to pay GM $2 billion as compensation.

I think they were also used in some Stellantis/Chrysler, Kia, Hyundai, VW models.

The dud LG batteries have certainly bought a bad reputation and added fuel (yes word-play intended) to the anti-ev nutters.

When we bought an EV a couple of months ago, we had 'must have LFP batteries' on the top of the list. I am somewhat surprised at the mix of Li-ion and LFP still on the market. The MG4 for example has LFP in the base model, but the longer range ones have Li-ion.

Proportionately though, EV's still have less fires than any other type.

Hybrids seem very volatile:

https://www.autoinsuranceez.com/gas-vs-electric-car-fires/

Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself - A. H. Weiler

jonathan18

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#3115305 13-Aug-2023 16:34

jonathan18: My wife and I took an MG4 for a test drive on Friday… The problem is, while she’d be fine with the battery size/range of the entry level model ($40k + ORCs after rebate), it misses out on the heated seats and steering wheel - and apparently that’s a step too far as it’s a downgrade from her current Leaf. …

While it’s another $3k for the 2nd tier model, that only provides a larger (non-LFP) battery (and a bit more power, that seems to only compensate for the extra weight); it’s a further $5k to get the bells and whistles of the heated seats, 360 camera (plus seemingly some additional safety features; other benefits are mainly aesthetic).<br /><br />So, for her, the initial relative bargain of a $41k EV is then $49k. So she’s thinking of sticking with her Leaf for a couple more years, waiting for s/h mid-range MG4s (or similar) to come onto the market. I’ve no clue what s/h prices of such cars will be like, especially given other factors such as the likely removal of the rebate should the govt change. Any thoughts on this?

Reading the specs some other key differences between models show, eg fast charging on the base model tops out at 88kW vs 150 for the others; also some of those features like RCTA are nice-to-haves. Still, given my wife’s usage (95% short urban trips) we’re not convinced these are worth $8k (plus the lack of LFP battery).

Mehrts

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#3116043 15-Aug-2023 10:34

robjg63:

I am somewhat surprised at the mix of Li-ion and LFP still on the market. The MG4 for example has LFP in the base model, but the longer range ones have Li-ion.

FYI, LFP batteries are just a different chemistry type of Lithium-Ion. They're not a separate entity.

See this site for a short and sweet breakdown of the different Li-Ion chemistry types with their background info, pro's, and con's.

kingdragonfly

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#3116804 16-Aug-2023 15:19

I know this is not going to be a popular post.

The Tesla driver was drunk, and relying on his auto-pilot.

Even so, no matter the driver, it would be hard not to see the 4 police cars with their emergency lights flashing.

It didn't see the stopped cop car till 24 meters, 2.5 seconds away. Though there was a clear lane, it did not try to evasion. It was travelling 86 KPH, injuring 5 officers.

Tesla Dashcam Footage Suggests Reasons for Autopilot Crashes

Wall Street Journal

Tesla Dashcam Footage Suggests Reasons for Autopilot Crashes

Obraik

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#3116806 16-Aug-2023 15:23

kingdragonfly: I know this is not going to be a popular post.

The Tesla driver was drunk, and relying on his auto-pilot.

Even so, no matter the driver, it would be hard not to see the 4 police cars with their emergency lights flashing.

It didn't see the stopped cop car till 24 meters, 2.5 seconds away. Though there was a clear lane, it did not try to evasion. It was travelling 86 KPH, injuring 5 officers.

Tesla Dashcam Footage Suggests Reasons for Autopilot Crashes

Wall Street Journal

Tesla Dashcam Footage Suggests Reasons for Autopilot Crashes

It's not really EV related, other than that it is an EV. Probably better suited for this post

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nyquist

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#3116891 16-Aug-2023 19:30

Would be interested to hear thoughts around this as well.

For myself, the base model meets my usecase which is pretty much 90% urban driving and the occasional longer trips to visit family and friends. I figure the additional safety features, heated seats and steering are nice to haves, but not necessary. I currently don’t have these though, so might be a case of not knowing what I’m missing.

Despite my current (petrol) car still going strong, I’ve decided to get an EV in case there are further EV rebate reductions or removal with the change in government. Given petrol prices, and assuming servicing and maintenance costs of current car will keep increasing, it made sense.

Last time I looked on trademe, a few secondhand 2020 / 2021 MG EVS Essence are being sold for around $33k - $37k depending on mileage. Not sure if MG4 will follow this pattern but it was close enough to the price of new base model (-7k rebate) that the preference for me was to get the base model.

jonathan18:

jonathan18: My wife and I took an MG4 for a test drive on Friday… The problem is, while she’d be fine with the battery size/range of the entry level model ($40k + ORCs after rebate), it misses out on the heated seats and steering wheel - and apparently that’s a step too far as it’s a downgrade from her current Leaf. …

While it’s another $3k for the 2nd tier model, that only provides a larger (non-LFP) battery (and a bit more power, that seems to only compensate for the extra weight); it’s a further $5k to get the bells and whistles of the heated seats, 360 camera (plus seemingly some additional safety features; other benefits are mainly aesthetic).<br /><br />So, for her, the initial relative bargain of a $41k EV is then $49k. So she’s thinking of sticking with her Leaf for a couple more years, waiting for s/h mid-range MG4s (or similar) to come onto the market. I’ve no clue what s/h prices of such cars will be like, especially given other factors such as the likely removal of the rebate should the govt change. Any thoughts on this?

Reading the specs some other key differences between models show, eg fast charging on the base model tops out at 88kW vs 150 for the others; also some of those features like RCTA are nice-to-haves. Still, given my wife’s usage (95% short urban trips) we’re not convinced these are worth $8k (plus the lack of LFP battery).

jonathan18

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#3116905 16-Aug-2023 20:18

nyquist:

Would be interested to hear thoughts around this as well.

For myself, the base model meets my usecase which is pretty much 90% urban driving and the occasional longer trips to visit family and friends. I figure the additional safety features, heated seats and steering are nice to haves, but not necessary. I currently don’t have these though, so might be a case of not knowing what I’m missing.

Despite my current (petrol) car still going strong, I’ve decided to get an EV in case there are further EV rebate reductions or removal with the change in government. Given petrol prices, and assuming servicing and maintenance costs of current car will keep increasing, it made sense.

Last time I looked on trademe, a few secondhand 2020 / 2021 MG EVS Essence are being sold for around $33k - $37k depending on mileage. Not sure if MG4 will follow this pattern but it was close enough to the price of new base model (-7k rebate) that the preference for me was to get the base model.

I get why my wife’s not keen on no longer having heated seats and steering wheel - and it’s not just about comfort, as it’s surprising how often I find I don’t need to turn the heater on thanks to a warm bum and hands! (On that basis it makes more sense to have these on the smaller battery models; wish they were at least an option.)

Our preference would be a better spec’d version of the smallest battery version, and I’d argue there would be a decent market for that - especially since some will prefer to go with an LFP battery. But my wife is pretty much convinced herself, as you seem to have, that she’ll be fine with the base model; at least it can be pre-heated via the app, even if this is only for 10 minutes. No idea if the fault that’s reported o/s (that the car needs to either be not plugged in or plugged in and charging for the remote heating to work) is present on NZ models, but if so hopefully it’ll be fixed via a software update.

Our logic for purchasing now (or in the next few months) is driven by the desire to not miss out on the rebate before it’s (likely) removed; for a cheap car like this it amounts to a 15% discount, which isn’t something to turn down. No idea as to where the price will go, but I would be surprised if they embark on the type of discounting Tesla’s engaged with (I’d have saved $10k if I’d bought my Model Y now compared to last Aug!)

Does anyone know what the service requirements/expected costs of the MG4 are? I do recall maoriboy reporting on the costs for his ZS EV, which I will see if I can find… Edit - I think this is the post? And another one here. @maoriboy - do you recall what this cost/how comprehensive it was? (And, BTW, how have you found our local dealer to deal with? Feel free to PM me if preferred! Ta.)

gzt

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#3116940 16-Aug-2023 23:30

I know this is not going to be a popular post. The Tesla driver was drunk, and relying on his auto-pilot.

I didn't watch the video. It sounds like drunk in charge of an autopilot. Definitely a new category of nuts, or maybe drunk in charge of driver assist functionality like lane keep and distance follow. The two are often confused in Tesla discussions. Either way that's a new safety issue to complicate enforcement. It's easy to see a demand arising for an enforcement stop device that tells the autopilot radar it's a brick wall causing the vehicle to stop safely.

Azzura

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#3116959 17-Aug-2023 07:35

SaltyNZ

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#3116962 17-Aug-2023 07:56

gzt: It's easy to see a demand arising for an enforcement stop device that tells the autopilot radar it's a brick wall causing the vehicle to stop safely.

Hah, jokes on them, Musk the Infinitely Wise deleted radar from all new Teslas about a year ago.

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robjg63

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#3116985 17-Aug-2023 09:40

The media wont be terribly interested in this article on the fire in the Fremantle Highway car carrier a couple of weeks ago, but...

Sorry EV haters, big ship fire probably wasn’t caused by electric cars

A very interesting article.

Apparently the ship is now moored - it didn't sink.

The salvage company says the deck where the fire broke out was not the one where the EV's were and all the EV's appreared to be in 'good condition'.

Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself - A. H. Weiler

Mehrts

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#3117036 17-Aug-2023 09:53

SaltyNZ:

Hah, jokes on them, Musk the Infinitely Wise deleted radar from all new Teslas about a year ago.

Radar was disabled, and the the close-proximity ultrasonic sensors (USS) removed in the US. However Aus & NZ still have USS fitted to new cars.

The next generation of autopilot hardware (HW4) brings capability to use HD radar, which "sees" more than the standard radar that was previously fitted.

kingdragonfly

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#3117046 17-Aug-2023 10:01

Forbes: Is Tesla Backtracking On Its Camera-Only Autopilot Strategy?

About a year ago, Tesla [meaning Musk] announced that it was dropping the use of radar for Autopilot and Full Self-Driving on the Model 3 and Y. The argument was that it could perform the same function with just cameras. But a few weeks ago, a Tesla Model Y was spotted in Canada with a LiDAR system integrated into its roof. Could there be a change coming to Tesla’s camera-only Tesla Vision plan?

One of Elon Musk’s many famous pet hates over the years (although not disliked as much as hydrogen) has been LiDAR, which he considers an unnecessary expense for autonomous driving. But when Tesla started removing radar as well to create the camera-only Tesla Vision, this raised a few eyebrows. The removal started in the US market in July 2021, and since April 2022, the Tesla Model 3 and Y cars sold in Europe have not included a front radar, either.
...
However, the sighting of the LiDAR-equipped Model Y in Toronto has led some to ask whether the Musk disdain for this sensor technology might be waning. The advantage of LiDAR is that it captures accurate 3D depth measurements directly. Vision cameras, in contrast, only capture 2D information, so complex algorithms are required to generate a 3D depth measurement. Radar also captures distance directly, but with a lower resolution than LiDAR. In other words, it’s great for generally spotting if there’s a slowing or stationary object ahead of your vehicle in an adaptive cruise control system, but it won’t be so useful for a more active level of autonomy that might attempt to steer your car around that object. On the other hand, radar has a much longer range than LiDAR.
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The high 3D depth resolution of LiDAR makes it a good check when training other systems, but an automotive LiDAR sensor allegedly costs over $1,000. A radar sensor costs $50-100 in comparison, and an automotive camera just $10-20. You can see why Tesla would like to make do with cameras instead of stumping up for expensive LiDAR.
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