EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

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Networkn
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#1932357 8-Jan-2018 19:33

I can imagine rocketing along in a EV voice controlled car and then needing to brake urgently...

"OMG Alexa BRAKE"

"I'm sorry what do you want me to break?"

"Alexa BRAKE!!!!"

"I am sorry, I can not understand your accent"

"BRAKE! BRAKE! BRAKE! We are all going to die!!"

"I'm sorry you forgot to use my activation keyword"

Linuxluver

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#1932566 9-Jan-2018 09:19

WyleECoyoteNZ:

A couple of EV\PHEV stories. The stuff story from David Linklater isn't too bad. A good, honest report. Good comments from the story in relation to PHEV range, these comments are much like the claims manufacturers give for fuel consumption of a ICE vehicle.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/99657465/the-highs-and-lows-of-living-with-an-ev

Interestingly, David's comments on the Tesla, as a drivers car, are very similar to those of Chris Harris (Top Gear & YouTuber) and his review\opinions on driving the Tesla Model S.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHhZ9jk-DrU

And Hyundai to showcase it's next generation fuel cell vehicles, amongst other things at CES.

http://www.autocar.co.nz/autocar-news-app/hyundai-s-vision-for-hydrogen-powered-life-beyond-transportation

It's all food for thought in the on-going discussion around the EV

Fuel cell cars have about 45% energy efficiency converting electricity (hydrolysis - you don't want to burning natural gas to make "clean" hydrogen) into burnable hydrogen (then you need to store the leaky, tiny-atom stuff).....whereas putting the same electricity into a battery EV has 90% energy efficiency.

Next time someone tries to tell you there won't be enough electricity for BEVs remind them that fuel cell would require double that....and you can't just charge at home. You have to go somewhere and pay for it.

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Aredwood

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#1932709 9-Jan-2018 12:20

The oil companies prefer a hydrogen based system, as that preserves the existing business model of having to visit refuelling stations to fill up.

There are already large diesel engines that are approx 50% efficient. Eventually someone will shrink one of those engines, and use it to make a series hybrid. Which would be an especially good option for very cold parts of the world. As waste heat from the engine can be reused instead of having to use battery power for heating.

But as usual, the most efficient diesel engines also have the highest NOx emissions. And we have the crazy situation of engine designers designing for higher than necessary CO2 emissions so they can reduce NOx emissions.

afe66

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#1932737 9-Jan-2018 12:29

Hydrogen maybe clean to "burn" but most of it comes from fossil fuels or coal processing so not really as clean as claimed.

WyleECoyoteNZ

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#1932862 9-Jan-2018 14:04

News from CES from Hyundai and Kia

Hyundai

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/we-drove-hyundais-new-hydrogen-prototype-to-ces-2018/

Kia

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/kia-niro-ev-concept-more-than-just-an-electric-car/

wellygary

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#1932923 9-Jan-2018 15:10

WyleECoyoteNZ:

News from CES from Hyundai and Kia

Hyundai

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/we-drove-hyundais-new-hydrogen-prototype-to-ces-2018/

"Most hydrogen is made by steam reforming natural gas."

"The price of hydrogen ranges from $12.85 to $16.78 per kg. As more stations become open retail and there is a higher utilization of the stations, the price per kg of hydrogen is projected to drop to ranges competitive with the prices of gasoline. Assuming that the average price per gallon of gasoline in California is $3.50 per gallon, hydrogen prices would have to drop to below $8.75 per kg to be competitive with gasoline. "

https://cafcp.org/

The California Fuel Cell Partnership

So it a) uses natural gas as a base feedstock and b) is probably not going to be much cheaper than Gasoline

There is a fungibility between Natural Gas and Gasoline, or you could just use natural gas directly as an automotive fuel as many transit fleets in the US do already

https://www.afdc.energy.gov/data/10302

Hydrogen is a solution looking for a problem......

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Aredwood

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#1932933 9-Jan-2018 15:47

wellygary: There is a fungibility between Natural Gas and Gasoline, or you could just use natural gas directly as an automotive fuel as many transit fleets in the US do already

https://www.afdc.energy.gov/data/10302

Hydrogen is a solution looking for a problem......

Or we could go back to using CNG like in the 80s.

Although LPG is better as it has a higher energy density when stored. And operates at lower pressures. Note also that lots of LPG comes from domestic gas fields, so there are benefits from less need to import oil.

Biggest problem is the silly low user regulations for electricity. As the major power companies also control most of the gas market in NZ. They make more money selling LPG for use in home hot water systems, than they would as an automotive fuel.

Linuxluver

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#1932939 9-Jan-2018 15:55

Aredwood:
wellygary: There is a fungibility between Natural Gas and Gasoline, or you could just use natural gas directly as an automotive fuel as many transit fleets in the US do already

https://www.afdc.energy.gov/data/10302

Hydrogen is a solution looking for a problem......

Or we could go back to using CNG like in the 80s.

Although LPG is better as it has a higher energy density when stored. And operates at lower pressures. Note also that lots of LPG comes from domestic gas fields, so there are benefits from less need to import oil.

Biggest problem is the silly low user regulations for electricity. As the major power companies also control most of the gas market in NZ. They make more money selling LPG for use in home hot water systems, than they would as an automotive fuel.

If CO2 wasn't a problem we could just keep using petrol.

But CO2 is a problem.....so CNG, LPG or petrol or deisel.....all bad.

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WyleECoyoteNZ

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#1932944 9-Jan-2018 16:04

It really is disappointing to see such narrow minded thinking, it really is.

Yes, the costs are high at the moment for buying hydrogen by the kg, as it takes a lot to get it to that end user product. But why not use nuclear power instead of natural gas or gasoline in the production of hydrogen?

https://californiahydrogen.org/publications-and-fact-sheets

Don't get me wrong, the BEV (Tesla\Leaf\Ioniq\i3) all have there place, all those mentioned, with the exception of the uber expensive Tesla have a limited range (200 km's or thereabouts) and then take a decent chunk of time to recharge.

Yes, the Kia Nero EV concept has a claimed range of 238 miles (380 Km's), but the Hyundai Nexo has a claimed range of 350 miles (560 km's), yet only takes 5 minutes to refill. And both are zero emissions.

The world needs both BEV (for short domestic commuting) and FCEV (for distance driving) to succeed. I doubt the fuel cell vehicle will die out completely with the likes of Toyota, Honda, Hyundai and shell all having some part to play in a hydrogen powered future.

Hopefully R&D into the production of hydrogen will continue, making it easier and cheaper to produce, and if that means a nuclear powered future, then so be it. Either way (hydrogen or battery) there are still downsides (nuclear waste v disposing millions of batteries), there is no getting from that.

Aredwood

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#1932959 9-Jan-2018 16:10

Agree with the CO2 bad part, so you can see why I don't like the low user regulations and rules controlling NOx emissions. As they both cause a lot of CO2 emissions for no benefits.

Also LPG has lower emissions than petrol. So there are benefits for use cases where no suitable EV is available. Rural courier drivers being an example.

I also just wanted to point out that using natural gas for automotive applications is not a new thing.

Aredwood

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#1932962 9-Jan-2018 16:22

WyleECoyoteNZ:
It really is disappointing to see such narrow minded thinking, it really is.

Yes, the costs are high at the moment for buying hydrogen by the kg, as it takes a lot to get it to that end user product. But why not use nuclear power instead of natural gas or gasoline in the production of hydrogen?

https://californiahydrogen.org/publications-and-fact-sheets

Don't get me wrong, the BEV (Tesla\Leaf\Ioniq\i3) all have there place, all those mentioned, with the exception of the uber expensive Tesla have a limited range (200 km's or thereabouts) and then take a decent chunk of time to recharge.

Yes, the Kia Nero EV concept has a claimed range of 238 miles (380 Km's), but the Hyundai Nexo has a claimed range of 350 miles (560 km's), yet only takes 5 minutes to refill. And both are zero emissions.

The world needs both BEV (for short domestic commuting) and FCEV (for distance driving) to succeed. I doubt the fuel cell vehicle will die out completely with the likes of Toyota, Honda, Hyundai and shell all having some part to play in a hydrogen powered future.

Hopefully R&D into the production of hydrogen will continue, making it easier and cheaper to produce, and if that means a nuclear powered future, then so be it. Either way (hydrogen or battery) there are still downsides (nuclear waste v disposing millions of batteries), there is no getting from that.

Even in the USA, nuclear power costs more than power generated by natural gas. As Fracking has reduced natural gas prices there.

And almost always, the most efficient overall system is the one with the least number of conversion steps.

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MarkH67

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#1933028 9-Jan-2018 18:10

I don't see any future in Hydrogen for cars, maybe for long distance trucks, or maybe not if the Tesla Semi or rivals work out well.

With cars: by the time you can get a hydrogen fuel infrastructure set up there will be many models of cars with 400km+ range and 100 or more kW charging rates. We are only one year or so from a 60kWh Leaf being available and I've read that Hyundai & VW (as well as others) are planning on using those same LG Chem batteries. Solid state batteries are not many years off, metal-air batteries may become a thing - there are plenty of options to explore and companies are spending many billions to research new battery technologies.

In a few years, we will have electric cars that cost <$40k with >600km range, what on Earth do we need hydrogen fuel cell cars for?

Linuxluver

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#1938480 14-Jan-2018 09:56

WyleECoyoteNZ:

It really is disappointing to see such narrow minded thinking, it really is.

Yes, the costs are high at the moment for buying hydrogen by the kg, as it takes a lot to get it to that end user product. But why not use nuclear power instead of natural gas or gasoline in the production of hydrogen?

https://californiahydrogen.org/publications-and-fact-sheets

Don't get me wrong, the BEV (Tesla\Leaf\Ioniq\i3) all have there place, all those mentioned, with the exception of the uber expensive Tesla have a limited range (200 km's or thereabouts) and then take a decent chunk of time to recharge.

Yes, the Kia Nero EV concept has a claimed range of 238 miles (380 Km's), but the Hyundai Nexo has a claimed range of 350 miles (560 km's), yet only takes 5 minutes to refill. And both are zero emissions.

The world needs both BEV (for short domestic commuting) and FCEV (for distance driving) to succeed. I doubt the fuel cell vehicle will die out completely with the likes of Toyota, Honda, Hyundai and shell all having some part to play in a hydrogen powered future.

Hopefully R&D into the production of hydrogen will continue, making it easier and cheaper to produce, and if that means a nuclear powered future, then so be it. Either way (hydrogen or battery) there are still downsides (nuclear waste v disposing millions of batteries), there is no getting from that.

Nukes are dirty. Even the 'clean' molten salt Thorium reactors have a 300 year storage requirement for wastes. We just have no need whatever to take risks like that. There isn't a country on the planet that hasn't had a war in the last 300 years.

Wind and solar and hydro plus batteries will get the job done. It looks like we are a handful of years from solid state batteries that last for a VERY long time and take a handful of minutes to charge. Grid scale battery farms are already making a strong case for themselves in South Australia, California, China and......Glen Innes in Auckland.

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Linuxluver

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#1938481 14-Jan-2018 10:00

NZTA are looking to convert their 140-odd vehicle fleet to electric over the next few years, starting with 41 vehicles this year. They also want to install their own charging infrastructure.

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#1938826 14-Jan-2018 23:35

networkn:
I can imagine rocketing along in a EV voice controlled car and then needing to brake urgently...

"OMG Alexa BRAKE"

"I'm sorry what do you want me to break?"

"Alexa BRAKE!!!!"

"I am sorry, I can not understand your accent"

"BRAKE! BRAKE! BRAKE! We are all going to die!!"

"I'm sorry you forgot to use my activation keyword"

VPN USA advert... so funnily just like this:
https://youtu.be/yaocChwE1L4

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