Slow drivers are being targeted by Police: Great, but how slow is too slow?

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Slow drivers are being targeted by Police: Great, but how slow is too slow?

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#1632393 18-Sep-2016 10:26

PhantomNVD: Ok, after reading the whole thread I think I can see both sides of this discussion apply to me.

I too get somewhat frustrated when following a slow trail of cars, especially when heading to work. However, I also drive a converted schoolbus Motorhome in the holidays though, and its design speed of 80 cannot be maintained up NZ's steeper hills, and my legal 90 limit is only ever on a long flat or a downhill, and really is revving that Cummins 5.9 engine rather high.

Since driving an actual school bus three years back, and buildings similar model MH last year, I have gained a new respect for truckers and other bus drivers, and become far more tolerant of their driving and space requirements when turning.

I think the real answer here is understanding and education. I would never support fining slower drivers, but can see that some drivers just don't understand how to use their vehicles, or don't understand the road and road signs here sufficiently. I would suggest a driver education program for these people if they "reoffend" after an innitial countrywide awareness program (like the 'new' mobile phone laws had) and then some variation of penalty points -> A compulsory defensive driving course and redo of class 1 final licence test (much like my P-endorsement required)

Thanks for an interesting post. You use the term "slower drivers", but if you are going to have a driver education program "for these people", I think the question I asked originally "How slow is too slow" needs to be carefully answered so that there is some consistency about which "slower" drivers are targeted.

For example, in a 100kmh zone, is "too slow" 95kmh, 90kmh, 85kmh, 80kmh or 70kmh? We have seen in this thread that the term "slower driver" would be very difficult to define because on some roads, such as the Rimutaka Hill Road, 80kmh might be tolerated by most drivers, but on a flat motorway 90kmh might be considered to be "too slow". And when a "slower driver" is following a large campervan that's going 80kmh in a 100kmh speed zone, is the "slower driver" obligated to pass this vehicle even when there isn't a passing lane and the road is narrow and winding?

Incidentally, there are lots of reader comments on slow drivers included with this article:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/assignments/share-your-news-and-views/14565672/Time-to-target-slow-drivers

Regards

Fred

Bung

6477 posts

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#1632399 18-Sep-2016 11:02

AFAIK the offense is holding up traffic by failing to pull over where practicable not travelling at a slower speed unless there is a minimum speed posted. I haven't been able to find any examples of such an area so far.

gzt

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#1635393 18-Sep-2016 12:50

Yeah it's really about the road code rather than any particular speed.

frednz

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#1635467 18-Sep-2016 15:32

gzt: Yeah it's really about the road code rather than any particular speed.

Yes, I guess so, it's all about making sure that you don't annoy other road users, particularly if one of the cars behind you is being driven by a traffic officer who needs to get somewhere urgently!

But at least if there's a passing lane, or if there are no cars are behind you, the current rules don't seem to require you to drive at the full speed limit if you don't want to?

I'm often quite surprised, for example, at the number of vehicles that drive quite slowly on the inside lane on the motorway between Wellington and Petone. If you want to drive at 100kmh on this motorway, you will often need to travel in the outside lane, and even there, you might find some quite slow vehicles. So, it's not everyone who wants to, or needs to, drive at the full 100kmh all the time. And, of course, you use less petrol if you drive at 90kmh instead of 100kmh and "nervous" passengers in the car also feel a lot safer and have more time to take in the scenery.

I have often thought that the second vehicle in a line of slow vehicles is as much to blame as the slow vehicle in front of it. So, does the road code require this second vehicle to pull over so that faster vehicles can "take on" the front vehicle?

blakamin

4431 posts

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#1635470 18-Sep-2016 15:48

frednz:

and "nervous" passengers in the car also feel a lot safer and have more time to take in the scenery.

You keep bringing up "nervous" passengers...

Why should everyone that has a licence, and places to go, be put out because of your theoretical "nervous" passenger?

Sidestep

1013 posts

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#1635563 18-Sep-2016 18:30

frednz:

is the "slower driver" obligated to pass this vehicle even when there isn't a passing lane and the road is narrow and winding?

In my mind yes.

Not if "there isn't a passing lane and the road is narrow and winding" but if there's a straight stretch, with decent sightlines and you're not going to pass, then make room for those who will.

I drive all over the place at 90km/h. Because the speed limit for trucks is 90 km/h - maximum - everywhere, the same for all cars towing a trailer, and it's only 80 km for school buses.
It's the law. My truck's often barely idling at that speed, but it's the law. And my speedo reads exactly right.

frednz:

and "nervous" passengers in the car also feel a lot safer and have more time to take in the scenery.

So I keep to the left of my lane to give them a good view of the road ahead, watch my mirrors to make sure the trailer's not dropping off the edge & throwing up gravel.
It's surprising how many people will just sit behind me even with the road clear for miles. Even if I slow down to give them a hint, they won't pass.
Maybe their sight's iffy, or something's wrong with their car (maybe its linuxluver slipstreaming me to save his battery) but more likely they're "nervous drivers" without the confidence to pass.

Then a car or two piles up behind them, and before long someone with mad passing skills tries to pass me & the row of slowpokes behind me.
Usually in one big long blast and they're doing 140 at the end of it.. or someone else's finally pulling out at the same time, or there's a corner coming, or that that car appearing on the distant horizon's a cop..

It's often scary enough that I end up with the heart beating faster or a sweaty grip on the wheel. And usually just around that 4 km to the next passing lane sign..

twentyplenty

1 post

Wannabe Geek

#1635574 18-Sep-2016 18:54

If I had been the driver of that car that was driving on a hilly windy road I would have told the cop to read the Rode Code .

Here is a quote

Safe speed guidelines

You can drive at any speed under or equal to the limit, provided:

It is ridiculous to expect every driver to drive at 100 kph

There are tons of signs telling us to slow down on every road .

I have driven on back country roads for years and there is no way that I would drive at 100kph on most of them .

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frednz

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#1635608 18-Sep-2016 20:41

twentyplenty:

If I had been the driver of that car that was driving on a hilly windy road I would have told the cop to read the Rode Code .

Here is a quote

Safe speed guidelines

You can drive at any speed under or equal to the limit, provided:

It is ridiculous to expect every driver to drive at 100 kph

There are tons of signs telling us to slow down on every road .

I have driven on back country roads for years and there is no way that I would drive at 100kph on most of them .

Thanks for your post, yes the road code certainly does tell you to slow down in certain circumstances, for example you need to make sure that:

your speed is safe for the traffic conditions (for example, slow down if you are on a busy road, or if there are pedestrians or cyclists around)
your speed is safe for the road conditions (for example, slow down if the road is winding, bumpy, narrow, wet or icy)
your speed is safe for the weather conditions (for example, slow down if it is raining, windy or foggy)

I think the above reinforces that the speed limit is a maximum and not a target. And in recent times, for example, when there has been some ice on roads, it's good to see that the road code emphasises caution rather than driving at the maximum speed allowed.

Having said that, I am aware that the road code also says that if you are travelling slower than the speed limit and there are vehicles following you, you must:

keep as close to the left side of the road as possible
pull over as soon as it is safe to let following vehicles pass.

Don’t speed up on straight stretches of road to prevent following vehicles from passing you.

I also take on board the comments made in this thread that the car's speedometer usually shows a higher speed than a GPS would record, but I'm not sure what equipment a traffic officer uses to check a driver's speed or whether GPS is used by traffic officers for this purpose.

Regards

Fred

blakamin

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#1635612 18-Sep-2016 21:02

Police commodores (used for traffic enforcement) usually have a properly calibrated speedo.

ScuL

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#1635615 18-Sep-2016 21:21

gzt: Yeah it's really about the road code rather than any particular speed.

Indeed, and it doesn't just cover speed either.

Having had 45+ hours of professional lessons to obtain my license in Europe I fear that most Kiwi's sadly don't get enough exposure to the road code mostly receiving lessons from friends/family.

If I had to make a list the following bug me a lot:

* Not indicating left when exiting a roundabout (making oncoming traffic stop unnecessarily)
* Not indicating the correct direction when entering a roundabout (left when left, no indication when straight, right when going right)
* Not giving way when an object is on their path (if a vehicle blocks your side of the road you're meant to stay put until the oncoming car has cleared and then clear the object, not force your way in)
* Not giving way to bus drivers indicating to exit their stop (particularly bad in Auckland I always see people pushing their way in to get around the bus at all costs)
* Not keeping left when lanes to the left are clear (again, most Auckland drivers seem to enjoy doing 80~90kmh in the inner lane whereas cars doing the speed limit have to undertake them to get past)

And often rash pulling in an out of driveways or turns. The amount of times I nearly t-boned a driver failing to give way when coming out of a driveway..

As a general note, in my country of origin I was always taught to do at least the speed limit or preferably up to 10% above it in order to keep traffic flowing.

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Batman

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#1635619 18-Sep-2016 21:29

ScuL:

gzt: Yeah it's really about the road code rather than any particular speed.

Indeed, and it doesn't just cover speed either.

Having had 45+ hours of professional lessons to obtain my license in Europe I fear that most Kiwi's sadly don't get enough exposure to the road code mostly receiving lessons from friends/family.

If I had to make a list the following bug me a lot:

* Not indicating left when exiting a roundabout (making oncoming traffic stop unnecessarily)
* Not indicating the correct direction when entering a roundabout (left when left, no indication when straight, right when going right)* Not giving way when an object is on their path (if a vehicle blocks your side of the road you're meant to stay put until the oncoming car has cleared and then clear the object, not force your way in)
* Not giving way to bus drivers indicating to exit their stop (particularly bad in Auckland I always see people pushing their way in to get around the bus at all costs)
* Not keeping left when lanes to the left are clear (again, most Auckland drivers seem to enjoy doing 80~90kmh in the inner lane whereas cars doing the speed limit have to undertake them to get past)

And often rash pulling in an out of driveways or turns. The amount of times I nearly t-boned a driver failing to give way when coming out of a driveway..

As a general note, in my country of origin I was always taught to do at least the speed limit or preferably up to 10% above it in order to keep traffic flowing.

And soon, Winston Peters will get your grandmother to teach L platers how to drive. *facepalm

lNomNoml

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#1635641 18-Sep-2016 23:32

gzt:

* Not giving way to bus drivers indicating to exit their stop (particularly bad in Auckland I always see people pushing their way in to get around the bus at all costs)
* Not keeping left when lanes to the left are clear (again, most Auckland drivers seem to enjoy doing 80~90kmh in the inner lane whereas cars doing the speed limit have to undertake them to get past)

It's most baffling to me as well. See it so often, problem also is that trucks and busses drive on the middle lane on the motorways which unfortunately are only 3 lanes so it forces the fast cars who would normally drive on the middle lane to either push and try to get a spot on the fast lane or undertake which usually happens.

Trucks are generally supposed to be on the slow lane but you can't really do that on Auckland motorways because most onramps are too short for joining traffic to speed up and join safely which would make it too dangerous for trucks to be on the slow lanes, comes down to poor road planning I guess. Even when an onramp is long enough people seem to have a habit of joining the traffic 20Km/h slower than enough else.

Strangely enough the roads in for example South Africa are much more laid out and orderly but driving there is far more dangerous, with speed limits being higher.

Also slightly off topic does anyone think it is worth reporting people for throwing things (99% cigarettes) out of their windows? I see it about 10 times a day and I'm really starting to wonder if Auckland is going to be buried in them in a few years.

Linuxluver

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#1635715 19-Sep-2016 09:59

frednz:

gzt: Yeah it's really about the road code rather than any particular speed.

Yes, I guess so, it's all about making sure that you don't annoy other road users, particularly if one of the cars behind you is being driven by a traffic officer who needs to get somewhere urgently!

But at least if there's a passing lane, or if there are no cars are behind you, the current rules don't seem to require you to drive at the full speed limit if you don't want to?

I'm often quite surprised, for example, at the number of vehicles that drive quite slowly on the inside lane on the motorway between Wellington and Petone. If you want to drive at 100kmh on this motorway, you will often need to travel in the outside lane, and even there, you might find some quite slow vehicles. So, it's not everyone who wants to, or needs to, drive at the full 100kmh all the time. And, of course, you use less petrol if you drive at 90kmh instead of 100kmh and "nervous" passengers in the car also feel a lot safer and have more time to take in the scenery.

I have often thought that the second vehicle in a line of slow vehicles is as much to blame as the slow vehicle in front of it. So, does the road code require this second vehicle to pull over so that faster vehicles can "take on" the front vehicle?

Out on the open road, the RH lane is the fast lane the left-hand lane is the slower lane. But in urban areas, the RH lane(s) becomes the express / through lanes and the left hand lane(s) function as "collector" lanes where people are mainly moving / merging on and off the motorway. Someone driving through at 100kph will find themselves constantly obstructing people on left trying to merge on....and people on the right trying to get off. This is most obvious on Auckland motorways with anywhere from 2-5 lanes depending on the width of motorway bridges and proximity to on/off ramps. In the narrower parts (northbound at Mt Wellington interchange, for example), there are only two lanes and people coming on at Mt Wellington have to merge into the left lane. Pretty much everyone with a clue - at any speed - will have moved to the right lane prior to this....or you get the sudden red-light-forever congestion that occurs when people already on the motorway fail to think about where the 30 cars coming up the ramp to join them are going to fit.

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pbgben

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Ultimate Geek

#1635719 19-Sep-2016 10:09

Lias:

gzt: It's a limit, not a target.

Wrong.. It's the absolute minimum you should be doing if you are in front of me.

Sign says 80, Target is 88. 10% rule man... 10%

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pbgben

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Ultimate Geek

#1635723 19-Sep-2016 10:15

lNomNoml:

gzt:

* Not giving way to bus drivers indicating to exit their stop (particularly bad in Auckland I always see people pushing their way in to get around the bus at all costs)
* Not keeping left when lanes to the left are clear (again, most Auckland drivers seem to enjoy doing 80~90kmh in the inner lane whereas cars doing the speed limit have to undertake them to get past)

It's most baffling to me as well. See it so often, problem also is that trucks and busses drive on the middle lane on the motorways which unfortunately are only 3 lanes so it forces the fast cars who would normally drive on the middle lane to either push and try to get a spot on the fast lane or undertake which usually happens.

Trucks are generally supposed to be on the slow lane but you can't really do that on Auckland motorways because most onramps are too short for joining traffic to speed up and join safely which would make it too dangerous for trucks to be on the slow lanes, comes down to poor road planning I guess. Even when an onramp is long enough people seem to have a habit of joining the traffic 20Km/h slower than enough else.

Strangely enough the roads in for example South Africa are much more laid out and orderly but driving there is far more dangerous, with speed limits being higher.

Also slightly off topic does anyone think it is worth reporting people for throwing things (99% cigarettes) out of their windows? I see it about 10 times a day and I'm really starting to wonder if Auckland is going to be buried in them in a few years.

I would 100% use a website that allowed me to submit evidence of a road violation. Dash cam records speed, capture car zooming past so should be able to submit it as a speeding offence. Sure its not 100% enforceable but after a few reports they got to do something. Govt, should spend some $$$ on "Rehab" classes for bad drivers, if they get reported for doing dumb sh1t or bad road etiquette then force them to take an hr long class.

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