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#1972742 11-Mar-2018 16:14

So when we collapse it's a thrashing, when they collapse it's a thrashing in disguise? There isn't much logic there. We got into winning positions in three games, we got home in two.

Did we play our best cricket, definitely not. Our openers were clearly a problem, they didn't perform so of course for us to make a score 3 other batsmen had to get runs. Southee wasn't a wicket taker which put more pressure on our middle bowlers. Williamson hasn't had a great summer either but for all that we could have won the series against a team which has been in great form and now has won 6 series in a row. To say that we were thrashed five times just isn't true.

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#1972816 11-Mar-2018 20:01

Handle9:

So when we collapse it's a thrashing, when they collapse it's a thrashing in disguise? There isn't much logic there. We got into winning positions in three games, we got home in two.

Did we play our best cricket, definitely not. Our openers were clearly a problem, they didn't perform so of course for us to make a score 3 other batsmen had to get runs. Southee wasn't a wicket taker which put more pressure on our middle bowlers. Williamson hasn't had a great summer either but for all that we could have won the series against a team which has been in great form and now has won 6 series in a row. To say that we were thrashed five times just isn't true.

What my point is, is that if the usual happens, when only 3 people bat and get a score, we are done big time. 30 overs in the red over in just two games we didnt bat. I cant recall sides losing by so much in tier 1 cricket. When again, only 3 contribute a meaningful score, if that is a grand century by Taylor, AND a very unlikely 79 by Latham, AND a very unlikely 43 odd in 22 odd balls by Santner, then we end up JUST being in a contest that goes to the wire. When any side gets great and unexpected contributions like that they are well and truly in the drivers seat, where we can look towards a super win, but our batting is such, that only gets us in with a competitive total, if these 3 unlikely scores are aligned in one game. These excellent efforts arent putting us in great shape, they are only covering the other failures. With a good effort we could punish ENG in a game. Thats ODI's. But at the moment our best efforts gives us a show, thats all.

We have a very good batting lineup, thats my issue. But we rely on 3 to get a low score, or if they are awesome, a par score. Cricket is fickle, but this is 5 goes in a row this had happened. The same each and every game.

Edit, I dont recall saying we collapse, this is what we do every game this ODI series. ENG collapsed, so we are in with a show. Normally if ENG collapse, we punish them.

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#1976533 14-Mar-2018 15:25

Eng collapse or win based on Mccullums consultancy. A bit like when we were the #1 team. YOu go hard no matter the situation and if you have a long batting line up odds are somebody will pay off. Not fogetting B Mcullum is a gambling man. But I agree with his mentality.

So when Eng collapse it is due to the fact going t20 on ODI games ocassionally is going to fail. But when it comes off its almost garunteed to win you games. They played the same against Aus and similar to NZ, Aus batting line up is too short and brittle. Im sorry but its true, tdgeek is correct. We have 3 batsmen, 4 if we lucky and if we lucky one of them comes off and we are in a game. Thats just not going to cut it going forward.

Eng are changing the way ODIs are played IMO. As they have stated they dont have room for players who cant both bat and bowl if bowlers. NZ ends at Santner really.

IMO we need to get back to playing to win by scoring big, we need more depth in our overall batting lineup. As Rashid is #10 for Eng thats where Santner should be (no offense to Santner at all, Rashid is an awesome batsman) and we should have much better all rounders under him down to #5. How we get there, no idea. We have the shell to fill out our future team as I highlighted and we are going pretty good considering the players we do have.

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#1976539 14-Mar-2018 15:34

TeaLeaf:

Eng collapse or win based on Mccullums consultancy. A bit like when we were the #1 team. YOu go hard no matter the situation and if you have a long batting line up odds are somebody will pay off. Not fogetting B Mcullum is a gambling man. But I agree with his mentality.

So when Eng collapse it is due to the fact going t20 on ODI games ocassionally is going to fail. But when it comes off its almost garunteed to win you games. They played the same against Aus and similar to NZ, Aus batting line up is too short and brittle. Im sorry but its true, tdgeek is correct. We have 3 batsmen, 4 if we lucky and if we lucky one of them comes off and we are in a game. Thats just not going to cut it going forward.

Eng are changing the way ODIs are played IMO. As they have stated they dont have room for players who cant both bat and bowl if bowlers. NZ ends at Santner really.

IMO we need to get back to playing to win by scoring big, we need more depth in our overall batting lineup. As Rashid is #10 for Eng thats where Santner should be (no offense to Santner at all, Rashid is an awesome batsman) and we should have much better all rounders under him down to #5. How we get there, no idea. We have the shell to fill out our future team as I highlighted and we are going pretty good considering the players we do have.

We did start out by going big, or at least Munro did, but he has now become brittle. I feel he places big expectations as do the public. In time to come, every specialist position will also be good at the other discipline. I dont know how much batting coaching there is for the players from Santner on but there needs to be plenty, even if it just keeps them in and rotating. There also needs to be a mental check on the team dynamic. When its tough they go quiet, crawl into their shells. Take a leaf out of Australian cricket. Our better batters tend to play not to lose. We should focus less on winning and more on playing a good game, the results will look after themselves, but I feel when we are in a slump we make sure we stay there

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#1976683 14-Mar-2018 19:07

TeaLeaf:

Im sorry but its true, tdgeek is correct. We have 3 batsmen, 4 if we lucky and if we lucky one of them comes off and we are in a game. Thats just not going to cut it going forward.

Appreciate that. We have butted heads and we will again :-) but we are both avid fans, with maybe a slightly different take. I'm going to get into the Warriors this year, after being an avid fan from Day one, in the early 90's, and have since joined the disgruntled ex fans.

I love Grand Slam tennis, maybe that is part of my outlook. They are all great, not much between No.1 and No.10 or in fact No. 20. If you play to your level and be mentally tough, you can beat anyone. Ask Federer, Nadal, and Jokerman.

Edit, and also ask Australia, RSA, ENG, India, Pakistan et al The day is there

TeaLeaf

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#1976696 14-Mar-2018 19:33

haha no problems, we all have a right to an opinion :-)

I think the issue is exactly that, we dont focus our lower order on things outside batting, Sodhi seems keen, Southee has wasted his talent and hasnt a lot of years left, Boult i think could do with more bat coaching, Ferguson hes young enough to learn.

And then our top order need to focus on playing their natural game but getting runs on the board. I feel Guptill and Taylor are both good at this. Munro is terrible and its unexplained. Yes we should be offensive at every moment as Mccullum has the Eng team doing, but there is a difference between being offensive and playing shots that are terrible. I also think we have a lot more white ball players we just didnt play. Its like our Test, ODI and T20 are almost identical. Of course we have some players that will remain like Williamson and Taylor, but I think we have some good young talent that could be playing in the ODIs and T20, they will need patience, like with Chapman, so much pressure on him, he has so much talent it would be a waste to judge him based on that expectation. We have kept Latham through far worse. Speak of which players like Latham I feel are Test players, Nichols too, once our big 4 get out they dont have the intention of a Jos Butler or Ali. Even Santner shows better intention, at least of late.

Id like to see Guptill given another go at tests, perhaps lower down the order as his natural game his see ball hit ball. Plus we dont really have much strike power lower down, he could lead Santner and the bowlers to some quality cameos.

Its going to take time to get new culture in the team, we have lost some key players from the last world cup and Mcullum is the biggest with his culture gone, we are very cautious. I think we need a new white ball captain, somebody more offensive thinking.

Time will tell, more players in the big bash, our own t20, so many young players in the team and so many on the fringes, I feel we are due for a period of blooding players and restructuring white ball vs red ball and finding a way of playing that we can feel safe that if we lose the top 3 quick we have players down the line who can do the job, which may mean looking for more all rounders in the team in white ball cricket. Its all going to take time and I feel a period of very inconsistent performances. Hopefully we can find our way within 3 years before we lose the old guards.

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#1976729 14-Mar-2018 20:24

Ugh I typed a post and must have deleted the tab

In short, we do have a team that can bowl, can field, and can bat down to 11. Boult can get a few quick, Sodhi can hit a 6, Santner has taken a step forward.

It is there. Kieran Read talked to the Warriors about breathing. That may have helped them absorb the game, and keep focussed, I feel thats what we need. Dont bat being worried about selection, bat what you can do, think smart, if you get 3, there is another day. But if you are always worried about batting for 3 runs and going out, you will meet your expectation and do just that.

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TeaLeaf

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#1978340 15-Mar-2018 22:36

tdgeek:

Ugh I typed a post and must have deleted the tab

In short, we do have a team that can bowl, can field, and can bat down to 11. Boult can get a few quick, Sodhi can hit a 6, Santner has taken a step forward.

Yes Santner was one of the positives to come from the series, really becoming an all rounder like Ali for Eng, but Sodhi needs another year or so training to get up to being a 20 avg batsman and so does Boult.

It will be fun to see who we replace Colin, Taylor and in a few Seasons, Southee with and if we can get a positive intent back in the team. I think Munro now that he has stated white ball only, really needs to learn from Guptill to pace his ODIs vs his T20. I think the IPL got it terribly wrong with Guptill, but hes made them look stupid with that 60avg in the season (thats high for t20) and now the highest t20 scorer ever. I think hes due an IPL future, especially after spanking the spinners which was the supposed concern. Still want him in our test team, prob at 5.

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#1981530 22-Mar-2018 14:21

Im liking Eden park, grass on it, almost looks like a real cricket pitch. Pretty obvious why they chose it for Day Night tests with the much larger population able to go after work, not sure how it will pan out though as Aucklanders like to watch it on Sky TV on the Couch lol.

Not happy about Santner and Sodhi being replaced for Astle. Good to see Wagner back. Nicholls fragile, Id have played Guptill there.

Ripper from Boult, the big wicket of Cook in Englands team, closing in on the most runs ever for ENg.

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#1981540 22-Mar-2018 14:31

BOULT ON FIRE

STRAIGHT THROUGH THE GATE BOWLS ROOT!

wow, ive never seen root get out like that, ever. well that will definitely limit them to 400 max.

One of the best ever and the up and coming best ever for England both out early.

TeaLeaf

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#1981546 22-Mar-2018 14:39

WOW now Malan, there best batsman in Australia.

Boult ate his weetbix, 3 HUUUUGE wickets

tdgeek

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#1981550 22-Mar-2018 14:41

ok so thats the 4 top order batters gone

TeaLeaf

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#1981586 22-Mar-2018 14:52

Am I dreaming? STOKES GONE BOWLED BOULT !

4 of the best test batsmen in the game and boult has sliced through them like a hot knife on butter.

Well 300 would be sensational from here, but Im going to say, unless our middle order collapses, this opening spell from Boult has won us the test already, barring rain.

TeaLeaf

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#1981588 22-Mar-2018 14:53

tdgeek:

ok so thats the 4 top order batters gone

Now Southee is feeling left out, 2 wickets.

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#1981594 22-Mar-2018 14:59

TeaLeaf:

Am I dreaming? STOKES GONE BOWLED BOULT !

4 of the best test batsmen in the game and boult has sliced through them like a hot knife on butter.

Well 300 would be sensational from here, but Im going to say, unless our middle order collapses, this opening spell from Boult has won us the test already, barring rain.

Long way to go. If they have lost 6, (I mean 7 ) quick wickets, how much is the track, how much is the bowlers? Thats the question, we might be facing the same difficulty. and we will be batting at night, that is another dimension

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