MH 17 "shot down" all dead

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MikeB4
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#1093109 21-Jul-2014 15:29

gzt:
turnin: So you aware that just months ago the Ukraine Prime Minister had to leave his post, he was not voted out, in any other country we would call this a coup ? what do you call it ?

I believe you are talking about the ex-president rather than a prime minister. The prime minister resigned in protest at the heavy actions of the president. The president subsequently fled in fear of legal prosecution and subsequent to that 73.4% of Ukrainian parliament voted in favor of removing him, which they did. Apparently the Ukrainian constitution states 3/4 and there is obviously some debate if 3/4 was reached. It looks to me a bit closer to events which occur in a functioning democracy than closer to a coup.

turnin: What do you make of the Nuland tapes ?

Yeah it's pretty obvious the USA is trying to heavily influence Ukrainian democracy.

The Big Powers are always applying influence and it trickles down until Harry applies influence to Bob, its not new and I don't believe it will ever go away.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

turnin

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#1093116 21-Jul-2014 15:37

KiwiNZ:
gzt:
turnin: So you aware that just months ago the Ukraine Prime Minister had to leave his post, he was not voted out, in any other country we would call this a coup ? what do you call it ?

I believe you are talking about the ex-president rather than a prime minister. The prime minister resigned in protest at the heavy actions of the president. The president subsequently fled in fear of legal prosecution and subsequent to that 73.4% of Ukrainian parliament voted in favor of removing him, which they did. Apparently the Ukrainian constitution states 3/4 and there is obviously some debate if 3/4 was reached. It looks to me a bit closer to events which occur in a functioning democracy than closer to a coup.

turnin: What do you make of the Nuland tapes ?

Yeah it's pretty obvious the USA is trying to heavily influence Ukrainian democracy.

The Big Powers are always applying influence and it trickles down until Harry applies influence to Bob, its not new and I don't believe it will ever go away.

cool, no point get upset about the very direct consequences of it then.

MikeB4

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#1093120 21-Jul-2014 15:40

turnin:
KiwiNZ:
gzt:
turnin: So you aware that just months ago the Ukraine Prime Minister had to leave his post, he was not voted out, in any other country we would call this a coup ? what do you call it ?

I believe you are talking about the ex-president rather than a prime minister. The prime minister resigned in protest at the heavy actions of the president. The president subsequently fled in fear of legal prosecution and subsequent to that 73.4% of Ukrainian parliament voted in favor of removing him, which they did. Apparently the Ukrainian constitution states 3/4 and there is obviously some debate if 3/4 was reached. It looks to me a bit closer to events which occur in a functioning democracy than closer to a coup.

turnin: What do you make of the Nuland tapes ?

Yeah it's pretty obvious the USA is trying to heavily influence Ukrainian democracy.

The Big Powers are always applying influence and it trickles down until Harry applies influence to Bob, its not new and I don't believe it will ever go away.

cool, no point get upset about the very direct consequences of it then.

Did not say that

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

freitasm

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#1093125 21-Jul-2014 15:48

joker97: but if you (Russia) meddle back by supplying hi tech weapons and start a war disguised with separatists and then shoot down some other people with a secret weapon (not so secret anymore) ...

One thing is actually using your own uniform in a war and another is deny involvement, support militias and be suspected of sending regular army personnel disguised as locals.

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tdgeek

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#1093126 21-Jul-2014 15:49

As far as I recall from yesterday's CNN, there are 130 odd investigation staff ready. A CNN reporter is there as are many reporters, the crash scene is blocked for vehicles, about 300 meters away, but reporters can roam freely. 300 odd volunteer miners are getting bodies. Some progress, but easy to see why. Rebels don't want the opposition, Ukraine and the west there to take control, Ukraine and the west cannot get guarantees of safety. What level of taking evidence it's hard to know, cannot rely on anyone for that info. Whatever rebels do take, that won't stop the forensic finding of a missile intervention. Evidence of that will be everywhere they cannot take the whole plane. The black boxes, if they are lost or never found, that's obvious of the reason why. Even then, whatever they show will be denied. Netherlands should run the investigation for some level of independence, but US is allowed as it's their aircraft, Ukraine is allowed as it's in there country. No matter what, one side will be saying its lies, one side will be saying its bias, etc.

Sad for the families to be stuck in the middle

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#1093140 21-Jul-2014 15:57

freitasm:
joker97: but if you (Russia) meddle back by supplying hi tech weapons and start a war disguised with separatists and then shoot down some other people with a secret weapon (not so secret anymore) ...

One thing is actually using your own uniform in a war and another is deny involvement, support militias and be suspected of sending regular army personnel disguised as locals.

I agree on that. It's common for a country to support and supply materials to another, yet not be in the war. Unless Russia provided the operator of the BUK, then technically it's no different to many other examples of supplying arms, as US and Russia and China have done. There are a multitude of complexities here, let alone should MAS have flown there, should ICAO, etc have provided a legit no fly zone. You can almost provide a positive response to every party, and negatives.

Oddly it's unlikely to be resolved legally, it will be politically

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Batman

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#1093499 22-Jul-2014 09:33

joker97: There is a half truth in that, as I believe no one is in charge of the investigation process. Everyone is in Kiev waiting for someone to take control it seems.

so it seems the PM of Malaysia is trying to make things happen from the other side of the world, good on him.

https://ms-my.facebook.com/najibrazak

5hrs ago:

PRIME MINISTER NAJIB RAZAK STATEMENT ON MH17 AGREEMENT

In recent days, we have been working behind the scenes to establish contact with those in charge of the MH17 crash site.

That contact has now been made. Under difficult and fluid circumstances, we have been discussing the problems that have occupied us all: securing vital evidence from the aircraft, launching an independent investigation, and above all recovering the remains of those who lost their lives.

Tonight, we have established the basis of an agreement to do just that.

Earlier this evening I spoke to Alexander Borodai, who is in command of the region where the tragedy occurred. We have agreed the following:

· Firstly, the remains of 282 people, currently in Torez, will be moved by train to Kharkiv, where they will be handed over to representatives from the Netherlands. The train will depart this evening Ukraine time, and will be accompanied by six Malaysian members of the recovery team. The remains will then be flown to Amsterdam on board a Dutch C130 Hercules, together with the Malaysian team. Following any necessary forensic work, the remains of Malaysian citizens will then be flown home to Malaysia.

· Secondly, at approximately 9pm tonight Ukraine time, the two black boxes will be handed over to a Malaysian team in Donetsk, who will take custody of them.

· Thirdly, independent international investigators will be guaranteed safe access to the crash site to begin a full investigation of the incident.

I must stress that although agreement has been reached, there remain a number of steps required before it is completed.

There is work still to be done, work which relies on continued communication in good faith. Mr Borodai and his people have so far given their co-operation.

I ask that all parties continue to work together to ensure that this agreement is honoured; that the remains of our people are returned, that the black box is handed over, and that the international team is granted full access to the site.

Only then can the investigation into MH17 truly begin; only then can the victims be afforded the respect they deserve. We need to know what caused the plane to crash, and who was responsible for it, so that justice may be done.

In recent days, there were times I wanted to give greater voice to the anger and grief that the Malaysian people feel. And that I feel. But sometimes, we must work quietly in the service of a better outcome.

I understand that for the families, nothing can undo this damage. The lives taken cannot be given back; the dignity lost cannot be regained.

My heart reaches out to those whose loved ones were lost on MH17. We hope and pray that the agreement reached tonight helps bring them a clear step towards closure.

ENDS

gzt

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#1093583 22-Jul-2014 12:08

Good effort there from Malaysia and the PM. No doubt some Americans will be annoyed everything did not go through them and could not take advantage of the situation for their own diplomatic purposes.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/10294767/MH17-black-boxes-recovered-after-secret-talks

tdgeek

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#1093586 22-Jul-2014 12:13

gzt: Good effort there from Malaysia and the PM. No doubt some Americans will be annoyed everything did not go through them and could not take advantage of the situation for their own diplomatic purposes.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/10294767/MH17-black-boxes-recovered-after-secret-talks

Doubt it, its not an American investigation. Their only involvement will be that the aircraft is American, so they will have an involvement in the investigation. This is a Europe incident.

gzt

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#1093624 22-Jul-2014 12:34

There will be some annoyance from the Americans. The Malaysian effort effectively recognises the Moscow based 'prime minister' of Donetsk as the responsible civil authority for the area, and must continue to do so for the duration of the process which could take a while yet and get more complicated.

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#1093631 22-Jul-2014 12:44

The carefully worded statement does not in any way recognise the "commander" of Donetsk as sovereign and elected. It was the way to negotiate with whoever needs to be negotiated with. What's wrong with that?

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Batman

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#1093632 22-Jul-2014 12:45

eg if someone is holding hostages in a bank you call the bank manager?

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#1093652 22-Jul-2014 12:56

gzt: There will be some annoyance from the Americans. The Malaysian effort effectively recognises the Moscow based 'prime minister' of Donetsk as the responsible civil authority for the area, and must continue to do so for the duration of the process which could take a while yet and get more complicated.

are you talking about the "secret deal" that was negotiated? the rules of engagement can change anytime, due to the highly volatile situation, for all you know they next minute the Ukraines hit them with a something strike and then everyone for themselves again. but this is the nature of the situation which first world new zealanders may never understand.

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#1093653 22-Jul-2014 12:57

I think it's a good effort to achieve some objectives. Return of the bodies, and recovery of the black boxes. It also puts a different light on events of the last few days in that regard.

turnin

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#1093737 22-Jul-2014 14:20

Well, now it gets very interesting,

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