Another (2nd) 737 Max 8 crash

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#2196594 12-Mar-2019 15:49

I wonder how long these aircraft will remain grounded. A crash investigation can take months or even years, and even if they are willing to make decisions based on a preliminary report they could be waiting a long time with no guarantee that they will get sufficient evidence of what, if any, mitigations need to be put in place.

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#2196595 12-Mar-2019 15:52

The FAA are not shy in grounding whole fleets and have a long history of doing so when appropriate.

The 737-Max family is the safest (at the moment)with a lower crash rate than other 737 families. The 100/200 series is/was the worst with crashes 5x more often.

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#2196596 12-Mar-2019 15:58

Safest at the moment. Without correctly determining the cause, could easily end up least.

tripper1000

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#2196605 12-Mar-2019 16:10

Someone earlier mentioned choosing airlines, not necessarily aircraft, based on Safety.

Funnily enough, this is the second 737-8 that Ethiopian Airlines has fatally crashed shortly after take-off. The first was in 2010 and put down to pilot error.

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#2196607 12-Mar-2019 16:16

The findings seem inconsistent assuming the eye witness report of an engine on fire. Alarming.

I am very careful who I fly with, and usually build in a few years of flights before I'll jump in a new plane type. I am a nervous flier at the best of times, despite having been on hundreds of flights in my life.

I won't be getting on a 737-Max 8 any time soon. Nor do I intend to fly with Ethiopian Air, probably ever.

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#2196629 12-Mar-2019 16:51

networkn:

The findings seem inconsistent assuming the eye witness report of an engine on fire. Alarming.

The report I read said it was reported to be making strange noises and there was visible "smoke" - which may have been vapour trail and if the pilots were struggling to control it, then it sure might have been making some strange noises. They have both black boxes. We'll have to wait and see. If there'd been an engine fire/failure, they'd have probably been okay. From what I read, the pilot had 8,000 hours.

There are more Max 8/9 in the US than anywhere else, the FAA has declined to ground them.

Boeing has orders for over 5,000 of them, have delivered 350.

tripper1000:

Funnily enough, this is the second 737-8 that Ethiopian Airlines has fatally crashed shortly after take-off.

This was a 737 Max 8, not an older generation 737-8 (800) series.

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#2196630 12-Mar-2019 16:57

Fred99:

The report I read said it was reported to be making strange noises and there was visible "smoke" - which may have been vapour trail and if the pilots were struggling to control it, then it sure might have been making some strange noises. They have both black boxes. We'll have to wait and see. If there'd been an engine fire/failure, they'd have probably been okay. From what I read, the pilot had 8,000 hours.

I was referring to the non recent crash from the same airlines.

Pilot error was blamed, but eye witnesses saw flames out of an engine apparently. Hard to imagine how a pilot error could cause that.

Different model plane I understand, was just commenting on the article posted.

alasta

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#2196709 12-Mar-2019 18:37

networkn:

Fred99:

The report I read said it was reported to be making strange noises and there was visible "smoke" - which may have been vapour trail and if the pilots were struggling to control it, then it sure might have been making some strange noises. They have both black boxes. We'll have to wait and see. If there'd been an engine fire/failure, they'd have probably been okay. From what I read, the pilot had 8,000 hours.

I was referring to the non recent crash from the same airlines.

Pilot error was blamed, but eye witnesses saw flames out of an engine apparently. Hard to imagine how a pilot error could cause that.

Different model plane I understand, was just commenting on the article posted.

Witness reports are very unreliable when it comes to aviation accidents.

It's also important to remember that aviation disasters always have multiple causal factors. It's possible, for example, that a pilot can react incorrectly to a technical fault such as in the Kegworth disaster.

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#2196725 12-Mar-2019 19:24

Batman:

frankv:

networkn:

And how would you check this enough to verify that on the day the pilot was going to follow those procedures?

I expect that, in the interests of their own survival, every 737-MAX 8 pilot has learned as much as he can about MCAS, whether his airline published procedures or not.

In this kind of situation, the FAA/ICAO/CAA/Boeing/Airbus procedures requiring complete validation and vetting of documentation (not the least by each of their lawyers) before release to users, is more of a hindrance than a help.

You are suggesting that every pilot needs to go onto wikipedia asap, google for MCAS hacks and apply them when quora says they should apply them, and that you would feel completely safe in one of these things?

I applaud your bravery.

Nope, not what I'm suggesting at all.

What I'm saying is that pilots are as interested in surviving as anyone else. So a prudent pilot will make it their business to get the information. And that the prove-it-is-100%-right-with paperwork-and-audiitability approach of regulatory authorities inevitably lags behind the real world information requirements. And that the 737 MAX 8 MCAS issue is an example of this.

No, I wouldn't feel safe in one of these. I'm glad that my upcoming holiday doesn't include a 737 MAX 8 flight.

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#2196726 12-Mar-2019 19:26

Now Singapore has banned them pending more information.

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#2196731 12-Mar-2019 19:45

PolicyGuy:

I don't believe any new / changed B737 MAX software or hardware has been approved or issued.
The only changes as far as I know, is to include documentation in the flight crew reference manuals that the MCAS exists, and how it works.

There are probably very serious discussions going on between Boeing and the main certification authorities (FAA & EASA) about how a system that is critical to flight safety can rely on a single sensor (Angle of Attack indicator) input with no redundancy, no 'voting', not even a 'disagree flag'
Just my $0.02

And whether FAA's decision to not require a new type rating given MCAS was the right one. Will be interesting to see if they double down, or ground all MAX until pilots can be trained for a new type rating. So far they appear to be doubling down.

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Tracer

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#2196733 12-Mar-2019 19:47

Looks like Air NZ made the right call with A32x neo.

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#2196753 12-Mar-2019 20:24

Beccara:

Hmmmm, Reminds me of the rudder hard over issues with the 737 in the 90's. As a general point I tend to avoid new models from both Boeing and Airbus for at least 3-4 years, New designed in aviation tend to be proven in blood (mostly). This wouldn't be the first time a new class in the same family causes problems with pilot training (Thinking Kegworth)

I was going to mention that, but there were two issues. Wasn't sure the exact details. One, two went down, the rudder went hard over. The case was the rear door detached, airflow took it to the rudder. The other was a rudder hardcover due to a jammed piston that had ice buildup, but want sure if that was 737 or not.

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#2196755 12-Mar-2019 20:27

Batman:

frankv:

networkn:

And how would you check this enough to verify that on the day the pilot was going to follow those procedures?

I expect that, in the interests of their own survival, every 737-MAX 8 pilot has learned as much as he can about MCAS, whether his airline published procedures or not.

In this kind of situation, the FAA/ICAO/CAA/Boeing/Airbus procedures requiring complete validation and vetting of documentation (not the least by each of their lawyers) before release to users, is more of a hindrance than a help.

You are suggesting that every pilot needs to go onto wikipedia asap, google for MCAS hacks and apply them when quora says they should apply them, and that you would feel completely safe in one of these things?

I applaud your bravery.

Lion Air has instructed every pilot better than a global alert by the Safety Boards or Boeing.

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#2196757 12-Mar-2019 20:30

Beccara:

TBH I've always been a little bit uneasy with the certification process for new models of the existing family, I understand the commercial reasons for it but if it turns out that these crashes are because of pilot unfamiliarity then it's another kegworth and another reason pilots at the very least shouldn't be bouncing between different models with 3-10 sim hours and a check ride

Im probably not up to date on this, I thought after Lion Air the issue was the new model is not the same as the old model, software wise. That was supposed to be fixed and updated across all aircraft? You cant just hop in the simulator to do the legal catchup.

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