They lost the war on drugs

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#1524736 2-Apr-2016 18:26

loathe:
tdgeek:
loathe:

Prohibition is demonstrably inefficacious.

As with alcohol. What do you propose?

Treat it for what it is, a societal and health problem, not one of criminal liability.

That's an easy way out. I propose no ACC of medical cost funding for drunks or stoners. User pays, that's fair

MikeB4

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#1524737 2-Apr-2016 18:27

Fred99:

MikeB4: I worked too much as the Ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, there needs to be better fences at the top of the cliff not less.

Yes I agree - getting evil gangsters to stop throwing our children over the fence at the top of the cliff is a great idea.
Removing the massive profit motive - the size of those profits which has been inflated by the abject failure of the "war on drugs" - is the best way to achieve it.

Will not remove the problem just changes it.

tdgeek

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#1524741 2-Apr-2016 18:38

Exactly. The profit takers can change their business model, but what about the customers? The kids the uninformed that ends up wherever ?

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#1524742 2-Apr-2016 18:40

tdgeek:

That's an easy way out. I propose no ACC of medical cost funding for drunks or stoners. User pays, that's fair

Except that that's not how it works right now, is it? Users don't pay for their police, lawyers, doctors bills, victim restitution, or any of that... All of that costs a lot more than supplying them with a small amount of clean drugs and equipment.

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#1524755 2-Apr-2016 18:56

MikeB4:

Fred99:

MikeB4: I worked too much as the Ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, there needs to be better fences at the top of the cliff not less.

Yes I agree - getting evil gangsters to stop throwing our children over the fence at the top of the cliff is a great idea.
Removing the massive profit motive - the size of those profits which has been inflated by the abject failure of the "war on drugs" - is the best way to achieve it.

Will not remove the problem just changes it.

Nobody claims it will completely remove the problem. But it will stop billions of dollars of illicit cash transactions - gangsters making massive amounts money from throwing children over the cliff. Even if that's all it would achieve, I'd still support decriminalisation 100%.

tdgeek

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#1524758 2-Apr-2016 18:57

SaltyNZ:
tdgeek:

That's an easy way out. I propose no ACC of medical cost funding for drunks or stoners. User pays, that's fair

Except that that's not how it works right now, is it? Users don't pay for their police, lawyers, doctors bills, victim restitution, or any of that... All of that costs a lot more than supplying them with a small amount of clean drugs and equipment.

They don't . Get coverage for accidents . Drunks or stoners are not accidents

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#1524761 2-Apr-2016 19:01

Fred99:
MikeB4:

Fred99:

MikeB4: I worked too much as the Ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, there needs to be better fences at the top of the cliff not less.

Yes I agree - getting evil gangsters to stop throwing our children over the fence at the top of the cliff is a great idea.
Removing the massive profit motive - the size of those profits which has been inflated by the abject failure of the "war on drugs" - is the best way to achieve it.

Will not remove the problem just changes it.

Nobody claims it will completely remove the problem. But it will stop billions of dollars of illicit cash transactions - gangsters making massive amounts money from throwing children over the cliff. Even if that's all it would achieve, I'd still support decriminalisation 100%.

Explain to me how tha gangs will be out of business. And how the children won't be exposed

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#1524765 2-Apr-2016 19:12

Fred99:

MikeB4:

Fred99:

MikeB4: I worked too much as the Ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, there needs to be better fences at the top of the cliff not less.

Yes I agree - getting evil gangsters to stop throwing our children over the fence at the top of the cliff is a great idea.
Removing the massive profit motive - the size of those profits which has been inflated by the abject failure of the "war on drugs" - is the best way to achieve it.

Will not remove the problem just changes it.

Nobody claims it will completely remove the problem. But it will stop billions of dollars of illicit cash transactions - gangsters making massive amounts money from throwing children over the cliff. Even if that's all it would achieve, I'd still support decriminalisation 100%.

Same gangsters different product, but then you add a whole host of social and medical problems as a result of increased drug abuse.

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#1524774 2-Apr-2016 19:34

Think of prostitution. It is legal here and (I am yet to find studies) I believe because it is legal there is lots of savings - social and money. There's a smaller risk of gang associations controlling this industry, workers feel safer and know they can report stupid behaviour to police without being criminalised themselves, etc.

Compare to America where there's a "War on prostitution". The amount of police resources spent on enforcing the laws. The mafia controlling the industry. People's lives destroyed just because they wanted to have innocent fun. Workers being treated as criminals even when they're the victims reporting some crime or abuse.

Now apply this to the drug trade. Move the power away from trafficking. I'd say there's more danger in being a dealer or as a user buying something that has no quality control.

Making it illegal will not eliminate it. Making it legal reduces the impact on society.

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#1524777 2-Apr-2016 19:39

freitasm:

Think of prostitution. It is legal here and (I am yet to find studies) I believe because it is legal there is lots of savings - social and money. There's a smaller risk of gang associations controlling this industry, workers feel safer and know they can report stupid behaviour to police without being criminalised themselves, etc.

Compare to America where there's a "War on prostitution". The amount of police resources spent on enforcing the laws. The mafia controlling the industry. People's lives destroyed just because they wanted to have innocent fun. Workers being treated as criminals even when they're the victims.

Now apply this to the drug trade. Move the power away from trafficking. I'd say there's more danger in being a dealer or as a user buying something that has no quality control.

Making it illegal will not eliminate it. Making it legal reduces the impact on society.

I disagree, legalizing drug does not eliminate the problems, the criminal element moves to something else. However you still have the drug problems but they escalate as there will be more drugs and easier access to them and trust me that will be nightmare. I say that from professional experience.

freitasm

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#1524779 2-Apr-2016 19:41

MikeB4:

freitasm:

Think of prostitution. It is legal here and (I am yet to find studies) I believe because it is legal there is lots of savings - social and money. There's a smaller risk of gang associations controlling this industry, workers feel safer and know they can report stupid behaviour to police without being criminalised themselves, etc.

Compare to America where there's a "War on prostitution". The amount of police resources spent on enforcing the laws. The mafia controlling the industry. People's lives destroyed just because they wanted to have innocent fun. Workers being treated as criminals even when they're the victims.

Now apply this to the drug trade. Move the power away from trafficking. I'd say there's more danger in being a dealer or as a user buying something that has no quality control.

Making it illegal will not eliminate it. Making it legal reduces the impact on society.

I disagree, legalizing drug does not eliminate the problems, the criminal element moves to something else. However you still have the drug problems but they escalate as there will be more drugs and easier access to them and trust me that will be nightmare. I say that from professional experience.

I didn't say it eliminates the problem. But certainly making it illegal doesn't eliminate either.

The decision is then which one has a lesser social impact.

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#1524791 2-Apr-2016 20:00

MikeB4:

Fred99:

MikeB4:

Fred99:

MikeB4: I worked too much as the Ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, there needs to be better fences at the top of the cliff not less.

Yes I agree - getting evil gangsters to stop throwing our children over the fence at the top of the cliff is a great idea.
Removing the massive profit motive - the size of those profits which has been inflated by the abject failure of the "war on drugs" - is the best way to achieve it.

Will not remove the problem just changes it.

Nobody claims it will completely remove the problem. But it will stop billions of dollars of illicit cash transactions - gangsters making massive amounts money from throwing children over the cliff. Even if that's all it would achieve, I'd still support decriminalisation 100%.

Same gangsters different product, but then you add a whole host of social and medical problems as a result of increased drug abuse.

What "increased drug abuse". The only country (Portugal) where this has been implemented properly, drug abuse has decreased. 10 pages in to this thread - and that hasn't sunk in.

What "product" will the gangsters turn to? That's a serious question. I'm really struggling to think of anything at all that's going to provide the revenue stream they've enjoyed, where the "customers" are so desperate for the product they'll commit serious crimes to get the extortionate amount of money to pay, where the profit margins are so huge that they're happy to sacrifice workers in places where the "war on drugs" has been taken such extremes that governments execute low-level black marketeers acting as couriers, that those couriers know the penalties but will take the risks, that law enforcement is corrupted to the the top by bribes...

It's an old saying that if you keep doing what you've always been doing - you'll keep getting what you've always been getting. And what we have been getting is absolutely horrendous - it must change.

MikeB4

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#1524803 2-Apr-2016 20:09

So drugs become legal, the criminals become law abiding upright citizens and drug use drops away and we all live happily ever after.

freitasm

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#1524807 2-Apr-2016 20:11

No, they won't become law abiding citizens. But this will make some people think twice before going to the black market. And that reduces the criminals' power.

It's about MANAGING the risk.

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#1524809 2-Apr-2016 20:16

MikeB4:

So drugs become legal, the criminals become law abiding upright citizens and drug use drops away and we all live happily ever after.

Cognitive dissonance.

Drug use becomes "decriminalised" not "legal" and sold in your corner dairy.

The criminals lose a massive revenue stream.

Drug use drops - yes - even if not by much, but the harm to users is massively reduced, and the harm to society by way of their property crime to support habits vanishes.

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