Who should I vote for?

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MikeB4
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#1855359 30-Aug-2017 16:22

Wiggum:

tdgeek:

Why did you add in "beneficiary fraudster" ? Nitpicking? Or want to avoid the other dodgy/illegal/denied? Your bias is overwhelming you

Because benefit fraudsters are the lowest of the lot.

Where would you place a tax fraudster?

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Rikkitic

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#1855381 30-Aug-2017 16:44

I would place a tax fraudster a lot lower than a benefit one. The amounts involved are usually considerably more and the betrayal of trust is considerably greater. No-one rips off the poor, hard-working taxpayer more than a tax fraudster. A benefit fraudster compared to that is like a shoplifter compared to an armed robber. Of course, most tax fraudsters are white businesspeople who wear suits and probably went to good schools, so of course they are just misguided souls, not the brimstone-exhaling evil incarnate that is the terrible, terrible benefit fraudster (who may happen to be brown).

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Rikkitic

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#1855397 30-Aug-2017 16:51

"Lisa Marriott’s work shows that welfare fraud amounts to $30.6 million per annum, which is not insignificant. However it is nothing compared to government losses from tax avoidance. The Inland Revenue Department costs this at a bare minimum of $1.2 billion annually, although it admits that it may potentially be many times that."

My emphasis added. Don't let your prejudices get in the way of reality.

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MikeB4

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#1855403 30-Aug-2017 16:58

Rikkitic:

"Lisa Marriott’s work shows that welfare fraud amounts to $30.6 million per annum, which is not insignificant. However it is nothing compared to government losses from tax avoidance. The Inland Revenue Department costs this at a bare minimum of $1.2 billion annually, although it admits that it may potentially be many times that."

My emphasis added. Don't let your prejudices get in the way of reality.

I have written in the past on GZ that Benefit fraud/abuse is low in NZ. Some of it organised, some of it because of substance abuse, some of it by mistake, most of it out of desperation.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Rikkitic

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#1855406 30-Aug-2017 17:00

Some people would rather believe that it is the result of low-lifes too lazy and morally degenerate to get a job to fund their drugs and alcohol and tobacco.

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tdgeek

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#1855421 30-Aug-2017 17:40

Wiggum:

tdgeek:

Why did you add in "beneficiary fraudster" ? Nitpicking? Or want to avoid the other dodgy/illegal/denied? Your bias is overwhelming you

Because benefit fraudsters are the lowest of the lot.

Dont you mean so you can pick on non National dodgy dealings? Correct. Because you cherry pick your arguments

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Rikkitic

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#1855425 30-Aug-2017 17:56

He doesn't cherry-pick. He just makes things up and then presents them as fact. That is why I have decided to stop engaging with him. You can't have a sensible debate with someone who does that.

To shift the subject slightly, I am not in favour of any kind of fraud, whether benefit or tax. But I am also not in favour of relentlessly pounding on someone because of something they did when they were young and foolish. Anyone who is even a little bit normal has done things when they were young and foolish that they wish they hadn't later in life. I think Metiria Turei has been a capable and responsible MP and party leader. At least I am not aware of anything to the contrary. I think she did the correct and necessary thing when she resigned as party leader. Her position was no longer tenable. Whether she should resign as an MP depends on her own and her party's assessment, and on whether or not she gets prosecuted for anything. Beyond that, it is up to the judgment of the voters. It is not up to a rabid minority who just can't get enough of her blood.

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shk292

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#1855483 30-Aug-2017 20:11

Rikkitic:. Anyone who is even a little bit normal has done things when they were young and foolish that they wish they hadn't later in life.

That's a signficat point. If MT had given the appearance that she regretted doing what she did, people may have been easier on her. But she just came across as smug and entitled.

Rikkitic

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#1855493 30-Aug-2017 20:36

I think different people take away different things, depending on their point of view. My interpretation (which could of course be wrong) was that she didn't show contrition because she was trying to make a bigger point about deprivation and being stuck in a poverty trap by unfair and unreasonable regulations.

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Wiggum

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#1855516 30-Aug-2017 21:22

shk292:

Rikkitic:. Anyone who is even a little bit normal has done things when they were young and foolish that they wish they hadn't later in life.

That's a signficat point. If MT had given the appearance that she regretted doing what she did, people may have been easier on her. But she just came across as smug and entitled.

And this is one of my top gripes with her too.

All the other so called "tax thieves" have all at least apologized, and paid back what was owed. Those that did not, have mostly sat time in jail. Not this woman though.

MikeB4:

I have written in the past on GZ that Benefit fraud/abuse is low in NZ. Some of it organised, some of it because of substance abuse, some of it by mistake, most of it out of desperation.

How can you be sure its low?

The only benefit frauds we know about are the ones that are caught out. In Turei case nobody would ever have known about it. Then there is somebody else who Turei knows about who has done the same thing, who she is refusing to report. Both cases would not be part of any benefit/fraud abuse stats.

MikeB4:

Where would you place a tax fraudster?

What is a tax fraudster? A person using loopholes to legally pay less tax is IMO not a tax fraudster.

A person lying on a tax return however is. But even in this case, this person has only lied to pay less tax, not lied to receive anything (take from others). Its debatable if he/she is actually stealing anything, they in fact just paying less tax (dishonestly). Nothing is stolen from other honest taxpayers. In the case of benefit fraud, money is physically stolen/removed dishonestly from the taxpayers pot.

tdgeek

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#1855527 30-Aug-2017 21:36

Wiggum:

What is a tax fraudster? A person using loopholes to legally pay less tax is IMO not a tax fraudster.

A person lying on a tax return however is. But even in this case, this person has only lied to pay less tax, not lied to receive anything (take from others). Its debatable if he/she is actually stealing anything, they in fact just paying less tax (dishonestly). Nothing is stolen from other honest taxpayers. In the case of benefit fraud, money is physically stolen/removed dishonestly from the taxpayers pot.

Tax fraud is not tax avoidance. I dont know why you mention tax avoidance, when Mike specifically said tax fraud (ster)

You told me that not getting your tax cuts, is a tax increase. Now you're saying that a person can lie to pay less tax as they arent taking from others??? They are taking the tax that I paid, off their tax return. Taking directly from the Govt and indirectly from me.

So tax fraud is not stealing?

Tax not paid due to tax fraud, which is illegal, is taking from the taxpayers pot.