They lost the war on drugs

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#1530091 11-Apr-2016 14:57

networkn:

Right, but those politicians are voted in by their constituents, based on the policies they offer at the time of electioneering. If a politician is strongly in favour of a particular stance on drugs, I may or not vote for them depending on what else they are offering in terms of views.

In theory, if the system is working properly, the people in parliament should be doing what the majority of people who voted for them, want.

Our system is based on Party politics, and that was cemented in place with MMP. So, in practice, you get to vote for a package of policies, some of which you you like, and possibly some which you don't like. So the majority of people who voted for a Party may not even like that party's stance on a particular issue. Whether an individual politician is strongly in favour of a particular position is pretty much irrelevant.

I suggest that the people in parliament don't particularly know nor care what the majority want. In theory, there could be referenda on significant issues. In practice, when citzen-initiated referenda were introduced, they were made non-binding, because it's much better to get on with doing whatever they want to do than having to do what their constituents want.

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#1530105 11-Apr-2016 15:34

Rikkitic:

Wow. My posts must be having some good effect if they are arousing so much passion in my critics. For the record, yes, I did mean politicians, as in those who sit in Parliament. As has been pointed out, they are elected to represent us and part of that process is our right and duty to lobby them about the issues we find important. Democracy is not casting your vote and going away for three years to let them get on with it. Democracy is about monitoring your representatives, informing them, and expressing your disagreement when you don’t like the direction they are going in. That is why we have select committees, amongst other things.

I withdrew from the firm captain thread because I didn’t want to inflame things further but I do think there is an effort underway to silence me and I think those engaged in it are guilty of precisely the things they accuse me of. They are trying to undermine my arguments and intimidate me by sticking labels on me and by accusing me of things like trolling. That is merely a tactic. It has no substance. In any case, a troll is one who makes outrageous statements purely to evoke a response. As it happens, I believe in the opinions I express. Some of them, such as those relating to drug decriminalisation and copyright, I believe in strongly and I am prepared to defend them strongly. Because those who disagree with me cannot produce better arguments, they are now resorting to the labelling they accuse me of. But calling me a troll is tantamount to questioning my sincerity, and I find that unfortunate. I can assure everyone that I am utterly sincere.

This will be my last statement on this subject unless I am forced to respond to other unfounded accusations.

You have it all wrong. No one here has an issue with anyone disagreeing. It is your labelling, not ours. I used the word labelling early on, now you repeat that over and over here right now. The many critics you mention do not likek the ongoing criticism that you level to everything, then when soemone disagrees you tell them io get head out of sand etc etc etc. Many here dislike that aggressive and "I am right" attitude. Its like me saying, I think NZ is too cold, and anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot.

Take this thread. Your thread, its devoid of such antics, and its good. But don't turn it around and make out like we all are ganging up. Your OTT posts have been feeding this, not ours. Agreeing or disagreeing has nothing to do with it, well, not from our end anyway.

Take this

" I am prepared to defend them strongly. Because those who disagree with me cannot produce better arguments"

Now, look at it this way. You have stated categorically that anybne who doesn't agree with you cannot proudce a better arguments. Hiow can you say that, as your belief

will off couse not agree. This is the problem. One says A, one say B. Both opinions, but your right and we are wrong

I do beleive that you are sincere, but not able to look at things from both sides, blinkers on. hard for anybody to fight that instinct though

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#1530114 11-Apr-2016 16:01

I think we should take this somewhere else, preferably PM. It is becoming about me, not the subjects that deserve exploration. What I said, or at least meant, is that I do not believe better arguments (than mine) have been presented so far so people are trying to attack me in other ways. That is my opinion about that matter. Of course your opinion will be different. If you wish to continue this elsewhere, maybe start a thread about opinion vs fact, or debating techniques, I will respond there but don't make it only about me.

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tdgeek

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#1530116 11-Apr-2016 16:14

Rikkitic:

I think we should take this somewhere else, preferably PM. It is becoming about me, not the subjects that deserve exploration. What I said, or at least meant, is that I do not believe better arguments (than mine) have been presented so far so people are trying to attack me in other ways. That is my opinion about that matter. Of course your opinion will be different. If you wish to continue this elsewhere, maybe start a thread about opinion vs fact, or debating techniques, I will respond there but don't make it only about me.

I give up, as others have. Your always right, your are facts we are opinions and so on. Attack? Well, there you go. I try to explain whats happening but its attacks back, or more to the point, justifcation. Everything can and will be justified I get it now. But I made an effort to explain matters, so we can all move in with a we can agree to disagree, but that was a waste of time so I won't bother any more. I won't be participating in any more one way traffic, anti establishment threads

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#1530117 11-Apr-2016 16:15

I was the one who called 'Troll'... but only in a politically thread you started with the exact opposite opinion of the title you presented , and after seeing your name as thread starter on the top three (controversial) threads on the trending column of the GZ live page.

If you state your opinions up front, defend them righteously, and be prepared to change them (or acknowledge differing opinions as equally relevant/valid) and you'll get a much better response here.

I'm also one to "call a spade a spade" but I try very hard not to offend when doing so, and to acknowledge that not all might agree with my perspective either...

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#1530121 11-Apr-2016 16:31

tdgeek:

I give up, as others have. Your always right, your are facts we are opinions and so on. Attack? Well, there you go. I try to explain whats happening but its attacks back, or more to the point, justifcation. Everything can and will be justified I get it now. But I made an effort to explain matters, so we can all move in with a we can agree to disagree, but that was a waste of time so I won't bother any more. I won't be participating in any more one way traffic, anti establishment threads

Point of information: It wasn't me who ever made any head in the sand comment. That was Frankv, on page 8. It took me awhile to find it. You are so obsessed with my 'bad attitude' that you are heaping anything and everything you can find on me, whether I have anything to to do with it or not. I suggest you take a deep breath and calm down.

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#1530129 11-Apr-2016 16:44

PhantomNVD:

I was the one who called 'Troll'... but only in a politically thread you started with the exact opposite opinion of the title you presented , and after seeing your name as thread starter on the top three (controversial) threads on the trending column of the GZ live page.

If you state your opinions up front, defend them righteously, and be prepared to change them (or acknowledge differing opinions as equally relevant/valid) and you'll get a much better response here.

I'm also one to "call a spade a spade" but I try very hard not to offend when doing so, and to acknowledge that not all might agree with my perspective either...

At the very beginning of that thread and again later I said I was not advocating that position, just posing the question. I thought it was an interesting matter to ponder. I didn't see anything wrong with it then and I don't now. Just because I happen to have three active threads running at the same time does not mean I'm 'trolling' or craving attention. I have been a member of this forum since 2007 and nothing like this has ever come up before. I do not see what the issue is here.

Apart from that, I am perfectly willing to change my opinion on anything if someone presents me with a convincing argument to do so. In fact, this has happened in the past. Can we now please return this thread to the important subject it is supposed to be discussing?

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tdgeek

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#1530142 11-Apr-2016 17:54

Rikkitic:

tdgeek:

I give up, as others have. Your always right, your are facts we are opinions and so on. Attack? Well, there you go. I try to explain whats happening but its attacks back, or more to the point, justifcation. Everything can and will be justified I get it now. But I made an effort to explain matters, so we can all move in with a we can agree to disagree, but that was a waste of time so I won't bother any more. I won't be participating in any more one way traffic, anti establishment threads

Point of information: It wasn't me who ever made any head in the sand comment. That was Frankv, on page 8. It took me awhile to find it. You are so obsessed with my 'bad attitude' that you are heaping anything and everything you can find on me, whether I have anything to to do with it or not. I suggest you take a deep breath and calm down.

I know that comment wasn't yours, I meant to state like, but no worry. Many many examples if I chose to re read, which I wont be doing. No, I don't need a deep breath or to calm down. Just was trying to explain why many here state what they do, explain. Saying what others have said, and others think, quite simple. I will stick to real comments forthwith, and from others only. Done and sorted

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#1530147 11-Apr-2016 18:07

Let others speak for themselves. I will answer them as I have you. Peace.

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#1530159 11-Apr-2016 18:41

Could you guys just let it go? I don't mind you discuss opposing views, but this is now about pointing out about traits not opinions.

So you let this go now. I am getting very close to start sending banhammers your way.

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#1530185 11-Apr-2016 19:20

I have been trying to let it go for quite awhile now. Í am finished with this discussion (not the drug topic) regardless of what anyone else says.

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#1530206 11-Apr-2016 20:17

A Kaitaia GP says it's time for a change:

Lance O'Sullivan, NZHerald: New Zealand's heavy-handed approach over the past 40 years has done little to address the serious health and social harms caused by problematic drug use. It's only made the problem worse, especially for Māori.

New Zealand is now counted among countries with the highest rates of drug use. We have failed to invest properly in the health of our people, with the government spending more on drug law enforcement and punishment instead of timely prevention, good education and quality treatment.

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#1530282 11-Apr-2016 21:45

This is very interesting and closely echoes what I believe. I think it shows a growing trend that will only continue to gain momentum. But it is also interesting to read the comments. They are a lot like the comments on this thread. Some are strongly opposed, regardless of what any studies indicate. Others are in favour. There is still a long way to go in the area of public opinion. Something like this will not happen overnight, though every small step gives hope.

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#1530854 12-Apr-2016 14:53

In regard to the continuing debate about the consequences of making drugs illegal, I find an article in today's papers revealing. Apparently, a new worldwide study into LSD indicates that it could be a valuable medicine in the treatment of mental illness. That is not yet conclusive, and more work needs to be carried out. What I find so telling, though, is this quote regarding a University of Auckland researcher who participated in the study: "He said LSD was studied extensively in the 1950s and 60s, but there had been almost zero research since it was made illegal."

So a potential medicine that possibly could have helped relieve the suffering of millions of ill people and those around them over the past 50 years remained untested and untried because a few wowsers were frightened of young people seeing pretty colours and dropping out of school.

The first response to this thread was 'Drugs are bad. The end.' That is a fairly unnuanced view and the evidence is mounting that it is just plain wrong. It has been suggested that I am unwilling to modify my opinions regardless of the evidence presented to me. I wonder if others here may prove to be more malleable in that regard.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/301273/lsd-could-one-day-treat-mental-illness

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#1530886 12-Apr-2016 16:02

Rikkitic:

In regard to the continuing debate about the consequences of making drugs illegal, I find an article in today's papers revealing. Apparently, a new worldwide study into LSD indicates that it could be a valuable medicine in the treatment of mental illness. That is not yet conclusive, and more work needs to be carried out. What I find so telling, though, is this quote regarding a University of Auckland researcher who participated in the study: "He said LSD was studied extensively in the 1950s and 60s, but there had been almost zero research since it was made illegal."

So a potential medicine that possibly could have helped relieve the suffering of millions of ill people and those around them over the past 50 years remained untested and untried because a few wowsers were frightened of young people seeing pretty colours and dropping out of school.

The first response to this thread was 'Drugs are bad. The end.' That is a fairly unnuanced view and the evidence is mounting that it is just plain wrong. It has been suggested that I am unwilling to modify my opinions regardless of the evidence presented to me. I wonder if others here may prove to be more malleable in that regard.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/301273/lsd-could-one-day-treat-mental-illness

Err, so basically if someone suggests it MIGHT have benefit, we are going to retrospectively trash the decision to make it illegal, and make strawman conclusions about the "thousands" of people, it MIGHT have helped?

How about we wait, see if it actually DOES help, properly, and finalize the results before drawing conclusions. You are pretty much treating it as fact already.

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