So it begins...

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#1959174 16-Feb-2018 14:40

rjt123:
tdgeek:

mrfte:

The suggestion that Charter school teachers having to meet "standards" set by unions is a blatant display of the power unions hold over Labour.

That is a big issue in the US. I've yet to see the word union mentioned in any articles on the Labour issue on Charter Schools.

I was watching the debate on the education amendment bill last night. Unions got a significant mention last night. Essentially charter schools are beyond the reach of the unions, and education is a union stronghold, so the unions are desperate to get rid of them when they can.

Fair enough, tks for the update and correction.

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#1959183 16-Feb-2018 14:56

Rikkitic:
And National is not subject to self-serving business interests? I honestly don't see much difference in principle between the two.

Self-serving is an interesting expression to use in this case...

Isn't a minimun-wage employee who votes labour because they will get a wage rise also self-serving.

Or a person who expects to get a better tax cut from national also self-serving if they vote that.

Likewise a union, are also self-serving, backing labour to push their unionist ideology.

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#1959189 16-Feb-2018 15:02

tdgeek:
rjt123:
tdgeek:

mrfte:

The suggestion that Charter school teachers having to meet "standards" set by unions is a blatant display of the power unions hold over Labour.

That is a big issue in the US. I've yet to see the word union mentioned in any articles on the Labour issue on Charter Schools.

I was watching the debate on the education amendment bill last night. Unions got a significant mention last night. Essentially charter schools are beyond the reach of the unions, and education is a union stronghold, so the unions are desperate to get rid of them when they can.

Fair enough, tks for the update and correction.

There has been little mentioned about the unions as yet, but Labour's unionist policies are the singularly most frightening. We'll hear a lot more about them in near future.

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#1959192 16-Feb-2018 15:07

rjt123:
Rikkitic:

And National is not subject to self-serving business interests? I honestly don't see much difference in principle between the two.

Self-serving is an interesting expression to use in this case...

Isn't a minimun-wage employee who votes labour because they will get a wage rise also self-serving.

Or a person who expects to get a better tax cut from national also self-serving if they vote that.

Likewise a union, are also self-serving, backing labour to push their unionist ideology.

Yes, all those apply, and nothing wrong with any of them. Including the @Rikkitic one above.

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#1959193 16-Feb-2018 15:07

Unions have very odd powers.

For example, if you want to have a NZ Press Card you can only get it by being a union member...!

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#1959194 16-Feb-2018 15:08

I am a big believer in checks and balances. Human nature being what it is, no grouping can be relied on to do the right thing if it gains absolute control. In the 1960s the unions seem to have had pretty much absolute control in the UK (and maybe NZ, I don't know) and the result was excess, abuse and disaster. My (admittedly inexpert) impression was that the unions often acted like thugs and I think they probably got what they deserved when their power was broken. But before that, earlier in the 20th century, ordinary workers did often have a pretty raw deal and the union people were heroes, bravely standing up for the basic rights of the individual at considerable risk to themselves. I would not want to see unions or the parties that represent them disappear. I think they are an essential counterweight to exploitative practices by unscrupulous employers. Just look at the recent example of zero hour contracts with the junk food empires. The government finally stepped in on that one but I think strong unions are healthy and necessary, just as strong employer associations are. Neither side should have the upper hand and both should be prepared to negotiate in a respectful and sensible manner.

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#1959199 16-Feb-2018 15:16

Geektastic:

Unions have very odd powers.

For example, if you want to have a NZ Press Card you can only get it by being a union member...!

It's interesting you mention that. It is the same in Holland. But this only really affects free-lancers. Media organisations also issue press cards to their employees.

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#1959201 16-Feb-2018 15:18

Rikkitic:

Geektastic:

Unions have very odd powers.

For example, if you want to have a NZ Press Card you can only get it by being a union member...!

It's interesting you mention that. It is the same in Holland. But this only really affects free-lancers. Media organisations also issue press cards to their employees.

Which is even odder. Why would a freelancer want to join a union? What benefit are they likely to get?

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#1959202 16-Feb-2018 15:24

Geektastic: Unions have very odd powers. For example, if you want to have a NZ Press Card you can only get it by being a union member...!

Can you provide more information? Most professions require membership of a professional body with a code of ethics etc. I'm thinking it's that rather than a union as such.

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#1959206 16-Feb-2018 15:32

With journalists it's also a union. I belonged to the Dutch one. A lot of the membership criteria have to do with establishing that you really are a bona-fide journalist, and not just a freeloader. But the usual union business is also part of it.

Edit: I forgot to answer your question. The advantage, other than being part of a union, is accreditation. A press card gives you access to a lot of things closed to the ordinary public.

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#1959208 16-Feb-2018 15:41

Geektastic:

Unions have very odd powers.

Yup. Under Labour's new workplace legislation, Unions will have the right to enter a business private premises without seeking prior consent. (providing they don't unduly disrupt business continuity)

Think about that for a second. That's greater power than the Serious Fraud Office has. Or the NZ Police. Or the IRD.

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#1959234 16-Feb-2018 16:45

Rikkitic:

And National is not subject to self-serving business interests? I honestly don't see much difference in principle between the two.

The difference is that the Labour/union 'association' is public knowledge, is easily verifiable by anyone that wants to verify the association, and voter has the choice to accept or reject any possible consequences of voting for Labour and it's association influenced policies.

The National party on the other hand conduct their associations with their backers in secret, behind closed doors, and over cups of tea in cafes. Anyone voting for National has no knowledge of the influence the backers are having on the political party and the policies they're voting for.

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#1959235 16-Feb-2018 16:48

networkn:

Rikkitic:

And National is not subject to self-serving business interests? I honestly don't see much difference in principle between the two.

They are not required to consult outside interests in the election of a leader. That is a significant difference.

And of course you believe that the National party dont have any outside influence on who they do select as their leader, Is that what you're saying? Yeah right, mines a Tui thanks.

rjt123

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#1959236 16-Feb-2018 16:55

MaxLV:
Rikkitic:

And National is not subject to self-serving business interests? I honestly don't see much difference in principle between the two.

The difference is that the Labour/union 'association' is public knowledge, is easily verifiable by anyone that wants to verify the association, and voter has the choice to accept or reject any possible consequences of voting for Labour and it's association influenced policies.

The National party on the other hand conduct their associations with their backers in secret, behind closed doors, and over cups of tea in cafes. Anyone voting for National has no knowledge of the influence the backers are having on the political party and the policies they're voting for.

Two answers. Firstly regarding the term s"self serving",11 my point earlier was that all parties are subject to self-serving" interests, not just national.

Secondly, it doesn't really matter who influences policy, voters vote for how policy will affect them. Likewise a party leader, voters vote depending on how they like the party leader, and what values/views they hold, not on how they were selected. So I have no objection to either labour's or national's selection process, but while the influence of the unions remain over the labour party the leader and their policies will be unionist orientated and I therefore will be absolutely opposed to them.

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#1959240 16-Feb-2018 16:59

There has been little mentioned about the unions as yet, but Labour's unionist policies are the singularly most frightening. We'll hear a lot more about them in near future.

They're only frightening to those who will be 'disadvantaged' by them. Those of us who benefit will no doubt disagree with you.

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