Jacinda Ardern sued over lockdown

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#2486044 19-May-2020 08:05

Fred99:

This is actually hilarious - that somebody should actually put it in words that "the barrier" between the Nats and the Greens "working together" is entirely the fault of the Greens.

Thank you for underscoring my point about polarisation and name-calling. It kind of is the fault of the Greens when the Greens themselves rule out working with National. They could've done it in 2017, too, and they didn't.

It's a very poor starting point for negotiation. So it won't happen.

*Shrug* I guess we'll see then.

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#2486053 19-May-2020 08:25

SaltyNZ:

It kind of is the fault of the Greens when the Greens themselves rule out working with National. They could've done it in 2017, too, and they didn't.

Including "while Simon Bridges is leader" as per the headline makes rather a big difference to that story - don't you think?

I wouldn't want to work with Bridges either - I don't believe he's trustworthy - and the past National government played games by shifting goalposts - ie if water wasn't up to a swimmable standard, then you change the standard.

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#2486060 19-May-2020 08:35

SaltyNZ: Thank you for underscoring my point about polarisation and name-calling. It kind of is the fault of the Greens when the Greens themselves rule out working with National. They could've done it in 2017, too, and they didn't.

I think you should read the article as really the way I am interpreting it is that Greens have a baseline set of morals and character that they are not prepared to compromise on.

I would never empower someone with as little personal integrity as Simon Bridges to become Prime Minister

If that isn't the most savage rebuke for someones character coming from a party leader I don't know what is.

The problem with the assumption of the Greens working with National is that there would have to be some benefit for the Greens in it. They worked constructively with the Key government on a few things but I never saw any sweetheart "cup of tea" deals for the Greens from National.

And we only need to see what happened to the Maori party who worked with National and where they ended up in coalition and destroyed their party.

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#2486069 19-May-2020 08:44

SaltyNZ:

I'm not either. I've voted for ACT and the Green Party. David Seymour can be a bit of a dick, but on the other hand he often has a point. We're not doing enough to keep the planet healthy, but I wish the Greens could dial back the social justice a little and be willing to work with National to actually do something about it.

Then you are completely missing a key part of the Green platform. The international Green movement emphasises we can't have a healthy planet with mass inequality.

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#2486080 19-May-2020 09:11

Varkk:

SaltyNZ:

I'm not either. I've voted for ACT and the Green Party. David Seymour can be a bit of a dick, but on the other hand he often has a point. We're not doing enough to keep the planet healthy, but I wish the Greens could dial back the social justice a little and be willing to work with National to actually do something about it.

Then you are completely missing a key part of the Green platform. The international Green movement emphasises we can't have a healthy planet with mass inequality.

Which, circling back to my original point: mass inequality is not going away today or ever. But we can decide not to let perfect be the enemy of good. We can still make a lot of improvements if we compromise, versus basically none if we refuse.

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#2486349 19-May-2020 14:11

Fred99:

Including "while Simon Bridges is leader" as per the headline makes rather a big difference to that story - don't you think?

I wouldn't want to work with Bridges either - I don't believe he's trustworthy - and the past National government played games by shifting goalposts - ie if water wasn't up to a swimmable standard, then you change the standard.

As a grown-up ... when I consider doing business with another organisation, I just put up with people I don't agree with.

In my experience it's possible to achieve extraordinary things by working across uncomfortable divides.

As an example I'm on working group with a couple of some reps from ENGOs. These people strongly dislike the sector I work for and probably me by association. I generally wouldn't seek out their company either but we have job to do, so we get on with it. You eventually get there if you can put your ego aside, avoid grandstanding and work in good faith.

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#2486360 19-May-2020 14:38

This is true to some extent in some circumstances, but only if the ones you are dealing with are not utterly dishonest opportunistic scoundrels. Otherwise you end up with situations like Neville Chamberlain waving a document and proclaiming 'peace for our time'. As a general principle this doesn't work because you have no way of being certain that the other guy is actually going to play by the rules.

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#2486433 19-May-2020 15:28

Varkk:

Then you are completely missing a key part of the Green platform. The international Green movement emphasises we can't have a healthy planet with mass inequality.

The increase in consumption associated with addressing economic inequality, could have a massive environmental impact. You don't just upsize the lifestyle of few billion people without consequences.

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#2486435 19-May-2020 15:39

MikeAqua:

Varkk:

Then you are completely missing a key part of the Green platform. The international Green movement emphasises we can't have a healthy planet with mass inequality.

The increase in consumption associated with addressing economic inequality, could have a massive environmental impact. You don't just upsize the lifestyle of few billion people without consequences.

I believe it depends on how you go about it. Not everyone needs a private yacht, or even a wide screen TV. That kind of equality is based on our current rapacious consumer economy and it is indeed a bad idea. Equality of having enough for a decent existence, like food to eat, a modest but adequate shelter to call your own, power for basic needs from solar and other non-destructive sources, good sanitation and drinking water that doesn't make you sick, that is a very different kind of equality and it is a shameful indictment of the system that we tolerate and allow to exist.

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#2486890 20-May-2020 10:31

Rikkitic:

I believe it depends on how you go about it. Not everyone needs a private yacht, or even a wide screen TV. That kind of equality is based on our current rapacious consumer economy and it is indeed a bad idea. Equality of having enough for a decent existence, like food to eat, a modest but adequate shelter to call your own, power for basic needs from solar and other non-destructive sources, good sanitation and drinking water that doesn't make you sick, that is a very different kind of equality and it is a shameful indictment of the system that we tolerate and allow to exist.

OK, I tend to agree with you. Almost all countries affected by that kind of abject poverty could rectify it with better governance, less corruption and more empowerment of women (leads to better family planning). Most of those countries have sufficient resources and wealth to deliver all of that.

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#2487318 20-May-2020 17:38

MikeAqua:

Rikkitic:

I believe it depends on how you go about it. Not everyone needs a private yacht, or even a wide screen TV. That kind of equality is based on our current rapacious consumer economy and it is indeed a bad idea. Equality of having enough for a decent existence, like food to eat, a modest but adequate shelter to call your own, power for basic needs from solar and other non-destructive sources, good sanitation and drinking water that doesn't make you sick, that is a very different kind of equality and it is a shameful indictment of the system that we tolerate and allow to exist.

OK, I tend to agree with you. Almost all countries affected by that kind of abject poverty could rectify it with better governance, less corruption and more empowerment of women (leads to better family planning). Most of those countries have sufficient resources and wealth to deliver all of that.

I don't think they can. They're drowning in debt (relative to GDP), can't borrow, the infrastructure is stuffed, they're preyed on by ("western") nations to invest and extract resources for a pittance in royalties (and bribes), and if using local labour pay peanuts. Health of the populations is terrible. Empowerment of women (and religious BS) is an issue, but there's probably an instinctive survival instinct in force - if many of your children can be expected to die before they reach adulthood - then have more children.
China knows this - that's why in 50 years they'll be ruling the planet - the way things are going on.

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#2487328 20-May-2020 18:07

Government ministers are now refusing to attend hearings of the epidemic response committee under the guise that as select committees are now sitting they are redundant.

If the committee is redundant why has it not been disestablished? Politics as usual is well and truly back in operation on both sides of the house.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/121570573/coronavirus-prime-minister-defends-letter-ordering-ministers-and-officials-not-to-appear-before-covid-select-committee

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#2487332 20-May-2020 18:11

Fred99:

SaltyNZ:

It kind of is the fault of the Greens when the Greens themselves rule out working with National. They could've done it in 2017, too, and they didn't.

Including "while Simon Bridges is leader" as per the headline makes rather a big difference to that story - don't you think?

I wouldn't want to work with Bridges either - I don't believe he's trustworthy - and the past National government played games by shifting goalposts - ie if water wasn't up to a swimmable standard, then you change the standard.

You might want to look into the fact the Coalition Government has done exactly the same thing, it was quite a stink about 6 months in.

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#2487342 20-May-2020 18:41

As far as I know, no-one in the coalition has ever cosied up to Filipino neo-fascist politicians. I have never met Simon Bridges, but my dislike of him is personal.

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#2487350 20-May-2020 19:05

Handle9:

Government ministers are now refusing to attend hearings of the epidemic response committee under the guise that as select committees are now sitting they are redundant.

If the committee is redundant why has it not been disestablished? Politics as usual is well and truly back in operation on both sides of the house.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/121570573/coronavirus-prime-minister-defends-letter-ordering-ministers-and-officials-not-to-appear-before-covid-select-committee

The ERC was a joke. It was there to provide transparency and accountability but it was largely a joke, purely partisan. As we have seen, despite the vast criticism, the strategy to combat the virus has been successful. Do we need to run this "committee" forever? Can you imagine National, facing a crisis, empowering the opposing party for accountability? :-) As we can plainly see the Covid-19 committee is redundant. Thats because the Govt ran L4, L3 and L2, not L4 for 5 minutes then L1, which is plainly the other option. Health comes first, so you can then run the economy. Look elsewhere to see what happened.

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