Jacinda Ardern - our new PM

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#2013560 10-May-2018 19:04

6FIEND:

MikeB4:

Yes some families pay less tax than others circa 1/3000 ...

I'm confused by your comment here. Can you elaborate?

Approximately two thirds of New Zealanders pay no "Net Tax" on their income. (i.e. they receive more in direct cash payments from the government than they pay in income tax) What does 1/3000 mean?

Most of the two thirds you refer is working for families where one or more parents are both working. How did NZ get to this point where so many families cannot survive without huge prop ups from the tax payer...and generally they are many hundreds of dollars/week.

Like the Reserve Bank Gov said today...why are our wages sooooo low when all the other economic indicators are so good. Just doesnt make sense. NZ is the wealthiest its probably ever been, we simply cannot fill the jobs vacant without massive help from visa holders. The new Government is spending like there is no tomorrow so they too seem to think things are rock solid.

Are are Corporates too greedy to pay decent wages..or perhaps is NZ just too small to sustain real world wages?

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#2013563 10-May-2018 19:12

On another note, I read today that my Mayor was applauding the new Government for the new Regional Development Fund (Shane Jones) assisting the debt ridden NZ Councils with new projects otherwise unaffordable. Isnt the real question why were Councils allowed to get into so much debt that it was unsustainable in the long term? There has been so much irresponsible borrowing by Councils over the last decade that if interest rates were to climb it would be a massive hit on the rate base that they couldnt afford. Generally NZ Local Government (imo) has been mismanaged and needs a massive overhaul. The last Government promised one but it didnt eventuate.

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#2013564 10-May-2018 19:14

Fred99:

Away you go again making an attempt to have a "last word" on a topic, without defending an opinion or even considering the alternatives - yet saying "trust that would be a catastrophic decision" based on nothing more than the fact that you once worked in the "welfare industry".

I hope you can see the irony in pointing this out?

And if the figures are to be believed - that approaching half of the nation's households are in fact dependant on welfare - it's a massive problem of proportions never imagined in anybody's wildest dreams when the welfare state was being developed. It's a crazy socialist trap, the amounts paid out are increasing - not reducing - despite near full employment in this country.

This I agree with. It's concerning. I do sometimes wonder how much of stuff is *actually required*. WFF seems to cover a lot of people. At the time it was introduced, it felt a bit like an Election bribe and was handed out to more people that it should have been for.

Sure, the people getting it are qualifying under terms of the program, but perhaps the program's criteria should be reviewed.

I think your view of removing it completely wouldn't be right, but I do feel entitlements to it should be reviewed.

rjt123

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#2013659 10-May-2018 22:18

Pumpedd:
6FIEND:

MikeB4:

Yes some families pay less tax than others circa 1/3000 ...

I'm confused by your comment here. Can you elaborate?

Approximately two thirds of New Zealanders pay no "Net Tax" on their income. (i.e. they receive more in direct cash payments from the government than they pay in income tax) What does 1/3000 mean?

Most of the two thirds you refer is working for families where one or more parents are both working. How did NZ get to this point where so many families cannot survive without huge prop ups from the tax payer...and generally they are many hundreds of dollars/week.

Like the Reserve Bank Gov said today...why are our wages sooooo low when all the other economic indicators are so good. Just doesnt make sense. NZ is the wealthiest its probably ever been, we simply cannot fill the jobs vacant without massive help from visa holders. The new Government is spending like there is no tomorrow so they too seem to think things are rock solid.

Are are Corporates too greedy to pay decent wages..or perhaps is NZ just too small to sustain real world wages?

In a global economy with a somewhat globally mobile workforce it takes a lift in global demand for labour to drive prices/wages up in NZ.

That is why we need a minimum wage or otherwise the market will be driven down by low wage economies like China.

Theoretically the low unemployment we have now should be driving up wages faster than it is. But if we can readily get workers in on visas then it suppresses wage inflation.

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#2013660 10-May-2018 22:19

Pumpedd:

6FIEND:

MikeB4:

Yes some families pay less tax than others circa 1/3000 ...

I'm confused by your comment here. Can you elaborate?

Approximately two thirds of New Zealanders pay no "Net Tax" on their income. (i.e. they receive more in direct cash payments from the government than they pay in income tax) What does 1/3000 mean?

Most of the two thirds you refer is working for families where one or more parents are both working. How did NZ get to this point where so many families cannot survive without huge prop ups from the tax payer...and generally they are many hundreds of dollars/week.

Like the Reserve Bank Gov said today...why are our wages sooooo low when all the other economic indicators are so good. Just doesnt make sense. NZ is the wealthiest its probably ever been, we simply cannot fill the jobs vacant without massive help from visa holders. The new Government is spending like there is no tomorrow so they too seem to think things are rock solid.

Are are Corporates too greedy to pay decent wages..or perhaps is NZ just too small to sustain real world wages?

There is certainly a lack of congruence between what many earn and what things cost. That is what causes the issue rather than the simple low earnings. Cambodians have low earnings, but they live in a place where you can feed 5 people in a Western restaurant for $25 and in a Cambodian restaurant for probably $5. So low earnings are not so much of an issue.

It will doubtless be a complex equation as to why costs are so high. Far too complex to solve here. I think it is partly structural - there do seem to be a lot of middlemen clipping tickets for no apparent benefit, for example. Why should a distributor exist to add 100% margin to cost just for sending an order to the factory, splitting it into 10 boxes and sending each one to a NZ customer to sell on in their retail store?

There does also seem to be true that companies expect to make a lot of money for their owners - which I have no problem with, as the owners are the ones risking capital and often their houses etc to secure the business - but making them a good margin to run the boat and buy the bach will inevitably lead to lower wages where they can pay them.

Conversely, of course, there are very well paid, highly skilled people working here. My wife knows contractors working in Corporate NZ billing $1500 a day for - in one case in a bank - a 3 year stint. Those people tend to be a small group with very specialist skills unavailable in the workforce at large, so they can command a high price for their time.

A larger population is in fact the answer to a lot of the basic cost issues - more consumers generally lowers prices, as does more competition - but of course a higher population would inevitably cause additional short and medium term problems. I would say you could accommodate at least 15 million people here without doing more than increasing the existing urban centres, leaving almost all the countryside other than that belt immediately surrounding the larger centres untouched, as well as all the wilderness.

Of course, you'd never get that population here in our lifetime or probably in people's grandchildren's lifetimes, but it could be done and probably will happen one way or another eventually.

Fred99

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#2013762 11-May-2018 08:25

networkn:

Fred99:

Away you go again making an attempt to have a "last word" on a topic, without defending an opinion or even considering the alternatives - yet saying "trust that would be a catastrophic decision" based on nothing more than the fact that you once worked in the "welfare industry".

I hope you can see the irony in pointing this out?

Nope - I think you're seeing things.

I might argue like a dog with a bone at times, but I don't recall exiting an argument and more or less stating "I'm the expert / authority - so I'm not listening any more".

We're all experts here in politics (/s)

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#2013847 11-May-2018 09:49

Fred99:

Nope - I think you're seeing things.

I might argue like a dog with a bone at times, but I don't recall exiting an argument and more or less stating "I'm the expert / authority - so I'm not listening any more".

We're all experts here in politics (/s)

You seem to have a short memory.

Whilst circumstances weren't identical they were similar.

Fred99

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#2013852 11-May-2018 10:01

networkn:

Fred99:

Nope - I think you're seeing things.

I might argue like a dog with a bone at times, but I don't recall exiting an argument and more or less stating "I'm the expert / authority - so I'm not listening any more".

We're all experts here in politics (/s)

You seem to have a short memory.

Whilst circumstances weren't identical they were similar.

I pop into this thread from time to time, most of the content bores me as I'm not particularly interested in arguing about the mainly inconsequential differences between the main parties/coalitions in NZ. So I leave again - as it's mainly an echo chamber of much ado about nothing in my opinion and I don't have much to say. If it's important to you, then carry on. I don't recall ever suggesting that as I'm more expert than you - so I'm not discussing it with you any more.

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#2013854 11-May-2018 10:04

Fred99:

Remind me. I pop into this thread from time to time, most of the content bores me as I'm not particularly interested in arguing about the mainly inconsequential differences between the main parties/coalitions in NZ. So I leave again - as it's mainly an echo chamber of much ado about nothing in my opinion and I don't have much to say. If it's important to you, then carry on.

I guess if that's how you see it, then I can see why you don't think the situations are similar, I see them differently and very similar.

Fred99

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#2013863 11-May-2018 10:12

networkn:

Fred99:

Remind me. I pop into this thread from time to time, most of the content bores me as I'm not particularly interested in arguing about the mainly inconsequential differences between the main parties/coalitions in NZ. So I leave again - as it's mainly an echo chamber of much ado about nothing in my opinion and I don't have much to say. If it's important to you, then carry on.

I guess if that's how you see it, then I can see why you don't think the situations are similar, I see them differently and very similar.

I presume you're talking about how annoyed I get about partisan political rants in the "off topic" forum?

6FIEND

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#2013882 11-May-2018 10:40

Circling back momentarily.....

rjt123:

There are ways to get the results you want without having to fiddle the figures. Imagine this sceript:

Interviewer: "have you seen or read anything in the news about the CEOs of large companies earning multi-million dollar salaries"

Respondent:"umm.... yep"

Interviewer: "do you think that people in the top income bracket should be paying more tax to help overcome problems like homelessness and child poverty" (if they're really good they put in all the right emotions to tug at your heartstrings...)

And hey presto! Statistical results say 87% of the respondents think that NZ'ers should pay more tax.... Not hard, totally legitimate but exactly the result you want.

It seems that you may not have been terribly far off the mark!

The poll, conducted by Labour pollsters UMR, provided two options:

a) the government should increase tax to at least maintain public services at their current levels into the future, or,

b) tax collected should stay the same while reducing public services.

...no hard to see why there is a majority in favour of a) when there is no third option offered.

c) Stop throwing away billions of dollars at a time bribing university students, Foreign Affairs officials, Wealthy superannuitants, etc.

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#2013883 11-May-2018 10:41

Fred99:

networkn:

Fred99:

Remind me. I pop into this thread from time to time, most of the content bores me as I'm not particularly interested in arguing about the mainly inconsequential differences between the main parties/coalitions in NZ. So I leave again - as it's mainly an echo chamber of much ado about nothing in my opinion and I don't have much to say. If it's important to you, then carry on.

I guess if that's how you see it, then I can see why you don't think the situations are similar, I see them differently and very similar.

I presume you're talking about how annoyed I get about partisan political rants in the "off topic" forum?

No. Just don't worry about it. No point in flogging this horse.

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#2013888 11-May-2018 10:48

6FIEND:

It seems that you may not have been terribly far off the mark!

The poll, conducted by Labour pollsters UMR, provided two options:

a) the government should increase tax to at least maintain public services at their current levels into the future, or,

b) tax collected should stay the same while reducing public services.

...no hard to see why there is a majority in favour of a) when there is no third option offered.

c) Stop throwing away billions of dollars at a time bribing university students, Foreign Affairs officials, Wealthy superannuitants, etc.

@mikeb4 so this was my exact point. You can make a result say anything, despite your claims to the contrary, depending on how, or what you ask a question, or who you target.

Your wife may have worked for an entirely trustworthy and ethical marketing company, but to deny there is a chance, even a reasonable chance that other companies aren't following suit, is well.. Not great.

I have done a fair bit of market research as a respondent, and my wife a lot more, she often supplemented her income during her student years. The good research often will ask you the same question, maybe a couple of times, different ways, conflicting ways sometimes, to ensure you are thinking through your responses. It's probably not that likely in a 2-minute poll taken at dinner time, but given the TWG is using this as justification and preparation for introducing increased taxation, I think working from a 2-minute poll, like this one, further supports my view of this coalition and it's poor running.

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#2013891 11-May-2018 10:55

If you don't laugh you cry. Today Twyford announces that the cost of his Kiwibuild 1 Bedroom homes, are going to be $50,000 more than promised during the election!

Justification from Twyford was that the numbers were done 2 years ago! Collins eviscerated him over it. As she should.

This is just hopeless. I am back to being massively angry.

Fred99

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#2013893 11-May-2018 10:57

networkn:

No. Just don't worry about it. No point in flogging this horse.

Yup - this guy:

Not this guy:

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