Moment of Truth?

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Ultimate Geek
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#1131259 18-Sep-2014 10:20

BarTender:

It's about how complicit our government has been..

And just what precisely would you like our government (of any political makeup) to tell you?

BarTender

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#1131261 18-Sep-2014 10:26

Klathman:
BarTender:

Never said any such thing. It's about how complicit our government has been.. both current and previous. And if anyone cares to hold the government whoever they may be post Saturday to account.

Considering the NSA lied to their own oversight commitee about what they were collecting (The whole lesser untruth saga) do you really think that the US tells NZ the full story about what they're collecting.

Then the follow up. As an Allie if you find out do you publically go and create a stink about it and demand that the NSA remove all data that has been collected about NZers? That would be the equivalent of withdrawing from the 5 eyes network and would almost guarantee that more spying would occur on NZers.

It sucks and is wrong but is this about the US or NZ? Feels like we're just the pawn here.

So that makes it ok that we are pawns here... just suck it up sweetie?

Klathman

302 posts

Ultimate Geek
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#1131281 18-Sep-2014 10:42

BarTender:

So that makes it ok that we are pawns here... just suck it up sweetie?

Last time I checked I wasn't a US citizen so have no control or say over US policy. Seems that that's the case for US citizens too but that's another matter and one for them.

Saranis

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Geek
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#1131310 18-Sep-2014 11:41

Klathman:
BarTender:

So that makes it ok that we are pawns here... just suck it up sweetie?

Last time I checked I wasn't a US citizen so have no control or say over US policy. Seems that that's the case for US citizens too but that's another matter and one for them.

Don't kid yourself, I'm a US citizen and I have no control over US policy.

hangon

398 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 41

#1131335 18-Sep-2014 12:08

BarTender:
Saturday/Sunday: Key. Greenwald is a henchman and everything he says is wrong. We have never had mass surveillance here.
...
Wednesday: Key. Erm so technically Snowden is probably right the Americans have collected metadata...

The shifting truths here.

what's shifting?

GCSB doesn't have the resources to do mass surveillance in NZ, nor is it legal.

Americans collecting metadata - don't we already know that?

networkn

Networkn
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#1131346 18-Sep-2014 12:26

hangon:
BarTender:
Saturday/Sunday: Key. Greenwald is a henchman and everything he says is wrong. We have never had mass surveillance here.
...
Wednesday: Key. Erm so technically Snowden is probably right the Americans have collected metadata...

The shifting truths here.

what's shifting?

GCSB doesn't have the resources to do mass surveillance in NZ, nor is it legal.

Americans collecting metadata - don't we already know that?

I wouldn't continue to waste effort trying to use logic or reason to convince people here there is nothing to see. They will believe what they want to regardless of anything else.

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BarTender

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#1131351 18-Sep-2014 12:31

hangon:
BarTender:
Saturday/Sunday: Key. Greenwald is a henchman and everything he says is wrong. We have never had mass surveillance here.
...
Wednesday: Key. Erm so technically Snowden is probably right the Americans have collected metadata...

The shifting truths here.

what's shifting?

GCSB doesn't have the resources to do mass surveillance in NZ, nor is it legal.

Americans collecting metadata - don't we already know that?

If that's the case then why does the NSA have a little red dot in little ole NZ for xkeyscore??
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data

If it's collecting 24tb of data a day... I don't see how that would be at all difficult if you are only keeping it for 24 hours or 30 days. 4tb drives are sub $300 so.. as long as you could maintain the write IO then I don't see it being difficult at all.
Especially if you used ssd for the real time capture and shifted the metadata to lower speed disk after that.
Cost per gb price has come down massively in the last 4 years.

Klathman

302 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 78

#1131353 18-Sep-2014 12:33

Saranis:
Klathman:
BarTender:

So that makes it ok that we are pawns here... just suck it up sweetie?

Last time I checked I wasn't a US citizen so have no control or say over US policy. Seems that that's the case for US citizens too but that's another matter and one for them.

Don't kid yourself, I'm a US citizen and I have no control over US policy.

Exactly my point though. If US Citizens are getting ignored then what is the chance of a NZ citizen having the ability to change how the NSA behaves.

Klathman

302 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 78

#1131359 18-Sep-2014 12:41

BarTender:

If that's the case then why does the NSA have a little red dot in little ole NZ for xkeyscore??
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data

Countries that have access to the application. Access and the authority to use it against NZers are two different things though. Yes you can say that it will be used anyway but if you use the argument of un-authorised activity occurring then that's a whole different argument.

Ever think about why there is that check box to hide 5 eyes metadata. Maybe it was required by member countries so that they could legally use the database even though the NSA couldn't give a stuff where it came from.

I find the argument that Snowden could see NZ data and therefore data was being collected in NZ a little weak. If my email was hosted in the US then would that count as NZ data or US data in his mind or wasn't that thought about? I'm sure all of my facebook data is being hoovered up but is that due to the GCSB too?

Glassboy

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Ultimate Geek
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#1131376 18-Sep-2014 13:16

Klathman:

I find the argument that Snowden could see NZ data and therefore data was being collected in NZ a little weak. If my email was hosted in the US then would that count as NZ data or US data in his mind or wasn't that thought about? I'm sure all of my facebook data is being hoovered up but is that due to the GCSB too?

What is being represented as NZ is data about NZers. There's nothing to say it was hosted in NZ. The other, and more deliberate, lie is about the cable tap. The cables go NZ - AU, and NZ -US (via Hawaii). The NSA can monitor their egress points. They don't need to touch the cable.

networkn

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#1131404 18-Sep-2014 13:34

If you are worried about the data collection, consider this could be your mother, or sister affected by this:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11326909

Saved I am presuming, by monitoring communications.

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freitasm

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#1131408 18-Sep-2014 13:39

networkn: If you are worried about the data collection, consider this could be your mother, or sister affected by this:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11326909

Saved I am presuming, by monitoring communications.

Probably LAWFUL monitored communications, targeted at specific individuals and groups, not uncontrolled large collection of data of all citizens.

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gzt

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#1131410 18-Sep-2014 13:42

networkn: If you are worried about the data collection, consider this could be your mother, or sister affected by this:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11326909

Saved I am presuming, by monitoring communications.

Far more likely by a combination of traditional border monitoring customs work, police work, concerned informants close to the group, and communications warrants. This type of focused work is very different to mass surveillance of everything - which is easily abused.

hangon

398 posts

Ultimate Geek
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#1131436 18-Sep-2014 14:03

BarTender:
hangon:
GCSB doesn't have the resources to do mass surveillance in NZ, nor is it legal.

Americans collecting metadata - don't we already know that?

If that's the case then why does the NSA have a little red dot in little ole NZ for xkeyscore??
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data

If it's collecting 24tb of data a day... I don't see how that would be at all difficult if you are only keeping it for 24 hours or 30 days. 4tb drives are sub $300 so.. as long as you could maintain the write IO then I don't see it being difficult at all.
Especially if you used ssd for the real time capture and shifted the metadata to lower speed disk after that.
Cost per gb price has come down massively in the last 4 years.

A freaking presentation

if you take that at face value there is a NSA server somewhere between wellington and wanaka - wait, are we talking about NSA or GCSB?

And didn't Snowden say NSA has "presence" in Auckland and North? why we didn't see those on the map?

There are also 25 red dots at the bottom of map. does NSA have servers underwater surrounding antarctic?

what you think you know about data storage, that doesn't reflect the reality about data centres in the scale you imagined. not that any of those scaled data centres exists in NZ. What GCSB had in budget is a drop in the ocean.

It just amazes me no one even mentioning NZSIS... all the time worrying about GCSB, first and foremost a foreign intelligent agency...

Glassboy

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Ultimate Geek
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#1131487 18-Sep-2014 14:57

hangon:

There are also 25 red dots at the bottom of map. does NSA have servers underwater surrounding antarctic?

haha no of course not. Next thing you'll be saying NIWAs fancy new boats aren't for research and are actually for servicing our underwater spy stations, which are all part of a conspiracy of Cthulu worshipping civil servants.

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