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ajobbins
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  #1292334 27-Apr-2015 16:57
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DonGould: Most people are actually for asset sales.  They're quite happy to get the stuff that the sales gave us.


What makes you think this? The referendum on asset sales (the most accurate depiction of the sentiment you're going to get) STRONGLY disagrees with you.

In my case I got insulation and heating in my exwifes home for my son.  That's a bonus for me.


At what cost? We sold all those companies for a bargain, and they are now largely owned by foreigners. National didn't get get their low end estimates for most of the assets, spent tens or hundreds of millions on the sale process and the companies and now returning great dividends. 

I know we got rid of the power companies off the books before everyone just dived in to solar, which they are in spades.


While solar is starting to become viable for households, the vast majority still won't be able to go off grid any time soon, and for many businesses, especially big ones, solar will not be viable on a large for some time. We sold way too early, for way too cheap. 

As I see it, Labour can't go back on CGT.  If they say "Ok we're listening, we won't do that" then National will just point to the back flip and draw attention to Labour not having real policy but just wanting to do the 'me too' thing, so they're stuffed.


Of course the others will say that - that's the nature of politics. I have respect for a party that can admit they got something wrong and change position on it where it makes sense and they can justify it. It makes political sense to drop a CGT policy right now because it's wildly unpopular. What I would have MORE respect for tho is a party sticking to their guns on policy like CGT because it absolutely makes sense to do. The challenge is helping everyone understand why it's necessary. It will happen, people are starting to accept that it's needed. But Labour came on a bit strong with this because people were ready.

On the super front, National is letting people use their super to buy houses for them selves.  That's just a winner.


Well, maybe. It does have an inflationary effect on house prices tho and many economists believe it will mean young people will pay much more for their home in the long run. I am a fan however, as it is a way to get on the ladder, which even if more expensive, is still probably better than being off it. Remember tho, that using Kiwisaver to buy your first home came in under Labour, not National, tho credit to National for having extended it recently.

Kim Dotcom helped national get over the line and berried the left.  I have no idea what was really going on in his head, but it just looked to me that he was holding himself up as a target that he must have known New Zealanders would hate and it swung vote to National.  Even he said on election night that his brand was poison. (or something like that, I don't completely recall).


I'm not sure that's true. I think it helped polarise things somewhat more, but my observation is that is pushed the right leaning people more to the right and the left leaning people more to the left. YMMV

As for this stupid pony tail crap, who cares.  If you're a woman with a pony tail don't stand next to John Key.  Ok we got that message.


What a dumb thing to say. This woman was at work, there is a major power imbalance and she can't just not go to work or not do here job because John Key decides he wants to touch her hair. This comment is bordering on victim blaming. How bout if it was your wife or your daughter working in a cafe, and some guy keeps touching her hair - would it still be OK by you then?. 





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alasta
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  #1292338 27-Apr-2015 17:04
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ajobbins:
On the super front, National is letting people use their super to buy houses for them selves.  That's just a winner.


Well, maybe. It does have an inflationary effect on house prices tho and many economists believe it will mean young people will pay much more for their home in the long run. I am a fan however, as it is a way to get on the ladder, which even if more expensive, is still probably better than being off it. Remember tho, that using Kiwisaver to buy your first home came in under Labour, not National, tho credit to National for having extended it recently.


Letting people raid their Kiwisaver in order to further inflate the housing market is a stupid idea. Kiwisaver funds should be used as a source of productive capital, which is something that the New Zealand economy is sorely lacking.


If you're a woman with a pony tail don't stand next to John Key.  Ok we got that message.


What a dumb thing to say. This woman was at work, there is a major power imbalance and she can't just not go to work or not do here job because John Key decides he wants to touch her hair. This comment is bordering on victim blaming. How bout if it was your wife or your daughter working in a cafe, and some guy keeps touching her hair - would it still be OK by you then?. 



Well said. Totally agree.

JWR

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  #1292355 27-Apr-2015 17:41

Geektastic:
networkn:
billbennett: Geekzone has just illustrated what we've learnt about John Key over the past seven years:

 

     

  1. A large number of New Zealanders hate the man, hate his politics, his image and everything. 
  2. A similarly large number think he can't do anything wrong. 
  3. Every time he does something stupid or immoral the people in group 1 hate him more than ever. 
  4. Every time he does something stupid or immoral some of the people in group 2 dig deeper into their reservoir of giving him the benefit of the doubt.
  5. A hardcore handful of the group 2 people might wish he'd go further and stop pussyfooting around. 
  6. A few people in the middle drift from 1 to 2 or from 2 to 1 every so often. But for the most part views are entrenched and have been all along. 
  7. We go on getting more and more polarised over this. 
  8. That causes some people, mainly moderates to disengage from politics and civil society which in turn cranks up polarisation. Loop back to step 7. 
  9. We may or may not look stupid overseas. People in group 1 worry about this, people in group 2 don't care or pretend it doesn't matter.
  10. This will go on until either John Key does something so incredibly dumb there's a sizable defection from group 2 OR Key gets bored and leaves politics. 

 





I'd argue it's the same with whomever is in charge in almost every democratically elected country in the world.


He's not unlike Margaret Thatcher in his polarisation. IME it usually comes down to which side of the fence you sit on. If you make your own money and do not expect the government to do more than the minimum in your life, you tend to like people like this. If you expect the government to pay you various allowances and do everything for you, you tend to dislike people like this.

There are still people in the UK foaming at the mouth over the Poll Tax introduced by Mrs T for no reason other than the fact that it actually made people pay for local government on a per capita basis, so instead of one lot of rates covering a houseful of people who therefore got subsidised by all the houses with only one or two people in, all of a sudden they had to pay their fair share - something they seemed to find objectionable for reasons I never understood. That was in 1988 and they still bang on about it.


John Key isn't a polarizing political figure at all!

That has been the main reason for his success.

He usually projects a reasoned, moderate approach to things in the media. It works with most New Zealanders (obviously).

I think this is why the 'ponytail incident(s)' seems so strange.





DonGould
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  #1292360 27-Apr-2015 17:56
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ajobbins:
In my case I got insulation and heating in my exwifes home for my son.  That's a bonus for me.


At what cost? We sold all those companies for a bargain, and they are now largely owned by foreigners. National didn't get get their low end estimates for most of the assets, spent tens or hundreds of millions on the sale process and the companies and now returning great dividends.


The cost is going to be to those investors who aren't going to make the profit they expected.

We would have stopped making those profits too because the profit is gone as solar comes on line, which was happening, would be happening and wasn't going to not happen.

You're making the assumption that holding on to the asset would have meant that the return stays high.  It won't.

ajobbins:
As for this stupid pony tail crap, who cares.  If you're a woman with a pony tail don't stand next to John Key.  Ok we got that message.


What a dumb thing to say. This woman was at work, there is a major power imbalance and she can't just not go to work or not do here job because John Key decides he wants to touch her hair. This comment is bordering on victim blaming. How bout if it was your wife or your daughter working in a cafe, and some guy keeps touching her hair - would it still be OK by you then?. 




I have highlighted the two comments I take on board.

It was NOT my intention to come across as blaming the victim!

This man needs to be told to keep his hands to himself and I think that message has very clearly been made.

Woman also need to just keep well away from this man.  That was the point I was trying to make, but I TOTALLY accept your example and point of view.

Personally I thought the first rule of politics in the current world is "don't touch people". 






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JWR

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  #1292372 27-Apr-2015 18:07

DonGould: ....

As for this stupid pony tail crap, who cares.  If you're a woman with a pony tail don't stand next to John Key.  Ok we got that message.




I think that is an appalling view on a person's rights.

There are many ways a woman could stop their ponytail being pulled e.g hidden razor blade in the hair.

But, that isn't right either.

The right answer, is don't touch people like this. Keep your hands to yourself.

DonGould
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  #1292421 27-Apr-2015 19:21
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JWR: I think that is an appalling view on a person's rights.


You want to talk about rights?  Let's talk about the children who are frightened in their own homes?

Let's talk about the kid who's parents are clearly so poor that he doesn't even have decent sox to wear in winter, to school, that's in my sons class?

Let's talk about the so many other more important issues. 

This one really need to be put to bed.

I would like to hear what action you would like to see taken that would stop this issue from being in the media.

Sack him?  Jail him?  What?

JWR: The right answer, is don't touch people like this. Keep your hands to yourself.


+1  I agree with this 100%  ...and I said as much above.

However the damage has now been done.

How do we move forward from this issue?






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freitasm

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  #1292452 27-Apr-2015 19:23
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DonGould: How do we move forward from this issue?


By voting.





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DonGould
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  #1292465 27-Apr-2015 19:37
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freitasm:
DonGould: How do we move forward from this issue?


By voting.



Ya that's a very fair comment, but we're not in the election cycle and is this really going to be an issue come the next election?

Will it all be forgotten by then?

An election isn't going to get called on this issue.  I don't sense that the public care enough.  I know I don't.

I know some of you will just think I suck for my poor attitude, but I really am sorry, I just don't care.

I do take on board the comment made about the power imbalance.  I don't know what the right answer to that point is.

In some sense I think the PM should stand down.  I do agree it's a very serious issue and just totally unacceptable. 

Having been pointed out to me to consider over the past couple of hours, I can agree that he's just crossed the line. 

Pulling the pony tail of my mates wife, in front of him, is something that can be seen as funny.  Especially if she gives me a quick crack and tells me to sod off.  Then we can all have a good laugh at me being put in my place.

But I sure as hell wouldn't go touching someone in a public place like this, and there's no real power imbalance if I did.... is there?

So I don't know what the best answer is here.  I really don't.




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JWR

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  #1292471 27-Apr-2015 19:51

DonGould:
JWR: I think that is an appalling view on a person's rights.


You want to talk about rights?  Let's talk about the children who are frightened in their own homes?

Let's talk about the kid who's parents are clearly so poor that he doesn't even have decent sox to wear in winter, to school, that's in my sons class?

Let's talk about the so many other more important issues. 

This one really need to be put to bed.

I would like to hear what action you would like to see taken that would stop this issue from being in the media.

Sack him?  Jail him?  What?

JWR: The right answer, is don't touch people like this. Keep your hands to yourself.


+1  I agree with this 100%  ...and I said as much above.

However the damage has now been done.

How do we move forward from this issue?




OK..

-Point. There was a lag between our last posts. Mainly, because I started my post and had to talk on the phone.

Yes, I am happy to talk about rights.

The rights of a waitress in a cafe doesn't exclude the rights of New Zealand kids.

Argue issues one at a time.

We can't deal with everything at once.

How do we move forward?

Just a personal opinion...

Is it a jail, sacking, resign etc. event

IMO No.

I think it is very similar to what Aaron Gilmore did.

But, John Key is the Prime Minister.

So there is an inconsistency.

I know there is no logical reason for that. But, I do understand and accept it.

You always have to balance ideology and pragmatism in politics.



DonGould
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  #1292472 27-Apr-2015 19:57
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I'm just not commenting on the rest of what you had to say because I just don't have any comment.  You made your points well and I don't feel strongly about any of it to make a comment...

JWR:  I think it is very similar to what Aaron Gilmore did.

But, John Key is the Prime Minister.


...but this on the other hand...

Yes is is similar to what Gilmore did isn't it.  (note the lack of question mark).

I don't know about your 'but' though.  I don't really care if he is the prime minister.  I don't really see he's got more right to this kind of behaviour than Mr Gilmore.  if you do, I'd like to hear why.






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JWR

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  #1292481 27-Apr-2015 20:08

DonGould: I'm just not commenting on the rest of what you had to say because I just don't have any comment.  You made your points well and I don't feel strongly about any of it to make a comment...

JWR:  I think it is very similar to what Aaron Gilmore did.

But, John Key is the Prime Minister.


...but this on the other hand...

Yes is is similar to what Gilmore did isn't it.  (note the lack of question mark).

I don't know about your 'but' though.  I don't really care if he is the prime minister.  I don't really see he's got more right to this kind of behaviour than Mr Gilmore.  if you do, I'd like to hear why.




He doesn't have more legal rights.

But, he is the Prime Minister.

He is further up the political chain.

There are fewer people to challenge him.



 
 
 
 

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DonGould
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  #1292494 27-Apr-2015 20:24
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JWR: 

He doesn't have more legal rights.

But, he is the Prime Minister.

He is further up the political chain.

There are fewer people to challenge him.




This isn't about legal rights though is it.  

You're right, there are fewer people to challenge him.

Steven Joyce in, Key out?




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  #1292496 27-Apr-2015 20:27
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DonGould:
ajobbins:
In my case I got insulation and heating in my exwifes home for my son.  That's a bonus for me.


At what cost? We sold all those companies for a bargain, and they are now largely owned by foreigners. National didn't get get their low end estimates for most of the assets, spent tens or hundreds of millions on the sale process and the companies and now returning great dividends.


The cost is going to be to those investors who aren't going to make the profit they expected.

We would have stopped making those profits too because the profit is gone as solar comes on line, which was happening, would be happening and wasn't going to not happen.

You're making the assumption that holding on to the asset would have meant that the return stays high.  It won't.

ajobbins:
As for this stupid pony tail crap, who cares.  If you're a woman with a pony tail don't stand next to John Key.  Ok we got that message.


What a dumb thing to say. This woman was at work, there is a major power imbalance and she can't just not go to work or not do here job because John Key decides he wants to touch her hair. This comment is bordering on victim blaming. How bout if it was your wife or your daughter working in a cafe, and some guy keeps touching her hair - would it still be OK by you then?. 




I have highlighted the two comments I take on board.

It was NOT my intention to come across as blaming the victim!

This man needs to be told to keep his hands to himself and I think that message has very clearly been made.

Woman also need to just keep well away from this man.  That was the point I was trying to make, but I TOTALLY accept your example and point of view.

Personally I thought the first rule of politics in the current world is "don't touch people". 




This man does NOT need to be told, no one needs to be told. What John Key did was ALWAYS WRONG, he is an intelligent educated man who knows he is always under the public spot light, that should have been enough of a hint not to be an idiot. There is absolutely no way I would consider pulling the hair of any of my female friends let alone someone in a coffee shop. 

The woman should not have to keep away from any man or any woman. In fact her job means she needs to interact with everyone who comes into that business. She should NEVER have to treat anyone who comes in as a potential thug/pervert/etc.

I can think on no social situation where pulling a woman hair is remotely acceptable.

Does out PM need to go on a course on good/bad touching ?


JWR

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  #1292502 27-Apr-2015 20:35

DonGould:
JWR: 

He doesn't have more legal rights.

But, he is the Prime Minister.

He is further up the political chain.

There are fewer people to challenge him.




This isn't about legal rights though is it.  

You're right, there are fewer people to challenge him.

Steven Joyce in, Key out?


It is about legal rights.

I don't think people, should be pushed around.

But, not all cases should end up in court.

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  #1292512 27-Apr-2015 20:45
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sir1963: 
This man does NOT need to be told, no one needs to be told. What John Key did was ALWAYS WRONG, he is an intelligent educated man who knows he is always under the public spot light, that should have been enough of a hint not to be an idiot. There is absolutely no way I would consider pulling the hair of any of my female friends let alone someone in a coffee shop. 

The woman should not have to keep away from any man or any woman. In fact her job means she needs to interact with everyone who comes into that business. She should NEVER have to treat anyone who comes in as a potential thug/pervert/etc.

I can think on no social situation where pulling a woman hair is remotely acceptable.

Does out PM need to go on a course on good/bad touching ?



First - yes, clearly he does need to go on a course for good and bad touching.

Second - I was out at dinner last night and many of the woman serving had pony tails.  I did think about the issues.  There were some very nice [1] women there but none of us took the time to engage them for anything other than service.  None of them came close enough either that would have put them in my range to touch their hair, well not that occured to me.  

[1] by 'nice', I mean they were very polite and seemed to do a good job, which are two things I like.

These woman did 'keep away' from us.  They didn't get close enough for a hug or a hair pull.  And like wise, I didn't put myself close enough from them.

This isn't about woman keeping away from men, it's about all of us keeping an appropriate distance from each other.

During the evening I hugged one of the guests during a greeting while I shook hands with others.  Each greeting was based on my relationship with that person.  

So yes, I do wonder if the PM should be asked to take a course on this stuff.





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