Jacinda Ardern - our new PM

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#2061889 24-Jul-2018 19:10

DaveB:

There is nothing wrong with higher achievers providing income earning opportunities is there? Define rich.

Not everybody is given the opportunity to be a higher achiever. Not everyone wants to be just provided with an income earning opportunity. Some people want more. Its not easy to get there and become a high achiever. High achievers have more opportunities and thats whats wrong with our system.

Rich! In New Zealand I would say thats anybody that earns more than $90k/pa.

Fred99

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#2061891 24-Jul-2018 19:15

MikeB4:

RogerThat:

Fred99:

Ah - I found it - "better to strive for an equal wage economy".

I disagree. Better to strive for equality of opportunity.

You cannot achieve equality of opportunity as everybody is different. Some people are disabled, some with mental health issues. Some refuse to work. There can never be "equality of opportunity". How do you propose that works?

Similar thing can be said about striving for a "high wage economy". Its out of reach to many. If everybody was paid the same, or given the same, it will create an equal fair society for all of us. The rich people currently earn it all and will take it all and leave very little for the disadvantaged. I don't really view communism as the bad thing everybody makes it out to be, I also see it as a less of an evil when compared to capitalism. And I think our PM Jacinda would have my back on this one.

Why can't the disabled achieve equality of opportunity?

Because cost to employ them may exceed their productivity potential. Of course this really depends on what you mean by "disabled".

My niece is disabled, mentally and physically. She can get around, read and write etc. She did have a job that she absolutely loved - working for a council in the office, "helper" filing etc. Boom - that went over a decade ago. The money for things like that dried up - it's less burdensome on "the economy" for her to sit at home doing nothing. But that's capitalism for ya.

RogerThat

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#2061892 24-Jul-2018 19:16

MikeB4:

Why can't the disabled achieve equality of opportunity?

For the same reasons that a blind man can't become a high paid pilot I suppose. Though I believe pilots are not highly paid jobs these days. "High Achiever" jobs are very limited, they not open to everybody especially in our small economy. Its hard enough to find that great job without being disabled now add a disability into it and the opportunities are even less.

Fred99

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#2061893 24-Jul-2018 19:18

RogerThat:

High achievers have more opportunities and thats whats wrong with our system.

Actually, the problem with equality of opportunity is that the greatest predictor to future financial success isn't IQ, or educational achievement - it's parental wealth. The privileged are granted privileges - and that passes through generations.

MikeB4

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#2061895 24-Jul-2018 19:20

RogerThat:

MikeB4:

Why can't the disabled achieve equality of opportunity?

For the same reasons that a blind man can't become a high paid pilot I suppose. Though I believe pilots are not highly paid jobs these days. "High Achiever" jobs are very limited, they not open to everybody especially in our small economy. Its hard enough to find that great job without being disabled now add a disability into it and the opportunities are even less.

That does not answer the question as to why the disabled cannot achieve equality of achievement

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

RogerThat

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#2061901 24-Jul-2018 19:28

MikeB4:

RogerThat:

MikeB4:

Why can't the disabled achieve equality of opportunity?

For the same reasons that a blind man can't become a high paid pilot I suppose. Though I believe pilots are not highly paid jobs these days. "High Achiever" jobs are very limited, they not open to everybody especially in our small economy. Its hard enough to find that great job without being disabled now add a disability into it and the opportunities are even less.

That does not answer the question as to why the disabled cannot achieve equality of achievement

I don't recall saying that disabled people cannot achieve equality of achievement. I was talking about success in jobs, and their positions up the corporate ladders compared to non disabled people. Our capitalist system does not make provision for these people in the corporate world. Thats a failure as Frank pointed out.

Its a disgusting system and I despise capitalism. Its a system designed to feed the fat rich pigs at the top of the corporate ladders and nobody else.

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MikeB4

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#2061902 24-Jul-2018 19:32

RogerThat:

I don't recall saying that disabled people cannot achieve equality of achievement. I was talking about success in jobs, and their positions up the corporate ladders compared to non disabled people. Our capitalist system does not make provision for these people in the corporate world. Thats a failure as Frank pointed out.

Its a disgusting system and I despise capitalism. Its a system designed to feed the fat rich pigs at the top of the corporate ladders and nobody else.

"You cannot achieve equality of opportunity as everybody is different. Some people are disabled, some with mental health issues. Some refuse to work. There can never be "equality of opportunity".

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

MikeB4

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#2061903 24-Jul-2018 19:39

I cannot see how the disabled would be better off under a non capitalist system. There is greater opportunity when there is a good flow of investment and capital to establish and support employment

Disclaimer; I am disabled

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

DaveB

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#2061905 24-Jul-2018 19:40

Fred99:

MikeB4:

RogerThat:

Fred99:

Ah - I found it - "better to strive for an equal wage economy".

I disagree. Better to strive for equality of opportunity.

You cannot achieve equality of opportunity as everybody is different. Some people are disabled, some with mental health issues. Some refuse to work. There can never be "equality of opportunity". How do you propose that works?

Similar thing can be said about striving for a "high wage economy". Its out of reach to many. If everybody was paid the same, or given the same, it will create an equal fair society for all of us. The rich people currently earn it all and will take it all and leave very little for the disadvantaged. I don't really view communism as the bad thing everybody makes it out to be, I also see it as a less of an evil when compared to capitalism. And I think our PM Jacinda would have my back on this one.

Why can't the disabled achieve equality of opportunity?

Because cost to employ them may exceed their productivity potential. Of course this really depends on what you mean by "disabled".

My niece is disabled, mentally and physically. She can get around, read and write etc. She did have a job that she absolutely loved - working for a council in the office, "helper" filing etc. Boom - that went over a decade ago. The money for things like that dried up - it's less burdensome on "the economy" for her to sit at home doing nothing. But that's capitalism for ya.

I used WORKBRIDGE for years. Brilliant, brilliant employees! And it is pleasing to see that a couple are still there 20 years after I left that company to start my own.

Many disabled people can often achieve more, purely by their own self determination and their obvious rejection of today's "self entitled generation" mentality.

Fred99

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#2061911 24-Jul-2018 19:53

MikeB4:

I cannot see how the disabled would be better off under a non capitalist system. There is greater opportunity when there is a good flow of investment and capital to establish and support employment

Disclaimer; I am disabled

It's not a binary question. I can't be bothered with a binary argument (capitalism = good, socialism = bad), when the reality is that all capitalist economies have socialist checks and balances, regulations, etc.

Those arguing for unbridled capitalism seem unaware that that also ultimately fails, and the consequence of that failure is usually decapitation of the "one percenters" or worse.

MikeB4

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#2061912 24-Jul-2018 19:59

Capitalism with appropriate regulation is better than unbridled capitalism or communism.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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Fred99

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#2061920 24-Jul-2018 20:06

MikeB4:

Capitalism with appropriate regulation is better than unbridled capitalism or communism.

Well that's on the continuum of "social democracy".

It does work - it's just subject to influence - and the rich have been winning for a few decades now.

'There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning.'

(Warren Buffett - 2006)

Geektastic

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#2061963 24-Jul-2018 21:48

Fred99:
MikeB4:

Capitalism with appropriate regulation is better than unbridled capitalism or communism.

Well that's on the continuum of "social democracy".

It does work - it's just subject to influence - and the rich have been winning for a few decades now.

'There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning.'

(Warren Buffett - 2006)

Pretty sure it's been that way through most of human history, Warren... You're not giving us information we didn't know.

Marcus Licinius Crassus was worth more in today's money than Bill Gates - and he died in 53BC!

Fred99

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#2062010 25-Jul-2018 07:51

Pretty sure it's been that way through most of human history, Warren... You're not giving us information we didn't know.

Marcus Licinius Crassus was worth more in today's money than Bill Gates - and he died in 53BC!

He lost his head - those were the days. Nowadays the order "c'mon troops" probably gets issued by the tapping of fingers from a safe distance, failure can be spun by the PR department.

Pumpedd

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#2062060 25-Jul-2018 10:01

RogerThat:

DaveB:

There is nothing wrong with higher achievers providing income earning opportunities is there? Define rich.

Not everybody is given the opportunity to be a higher achiever. Not everyone wants to be just provided with an income earning opportunity. Some people want more. Its not easy to get there and become a high achiever. High achievers have more opportunities and thats whats wrong with our system.

Rich! In New Zealand I would say thats anybody that earns more than $90k/pa.

That is poor according to the Government....as you can access a cheap Kiwibuild house as long as you earn under $180k/annum.

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