Minimum Wage increases

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#2148811 21-Dec-2018 13:06

attewell:
tdgeek:

attewell:

What the min wage increase does is goes towards resetting that inflation

I'd suggest that the puny dollar minimum wage increase that will be added to the economy in terms of extra costs is far outweighed by the much higher numbers of higher paid earners recieving their annual review.

And I think we can bear those costs. We need to close the gap between low & high earners. There shouldnt be such a wide gap..

An society with such wide gaps and disadvantaged contribute to crime and home violence and parents who need to work 60 hours a week to care for family. How can a person working 60 hours be there for children

Some only think of themselves. Those people would probably also like to see the min wage decreased

1.I don't believe we need to make an effort to close the low and high gap for the sake of the gap. Some earn low some earn high, that's life. There is a place for everyone. My opinion is the baseline is too low

2. These factors will exist in any environment. When the base wage = $20 it will still exist. But many in that income level will have a shot at foregoing less, being able to make choices, which is probably not the case right now. After 2021 they will go back to annual increases of very little $ wise, but they will at least be better off, perhaps just poor, and not in poverty

3. That's not the case for everyone here, it is for some. Its about opinions and why, after all its a discussion

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#2148820 21-Dec-2018 13:14

The increase in minimum wage shouldn’t be considered in isolation

It is more about making sure we have a functioning and balanced society. Which has quite a few problems

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#2148826 21-Dec-2018 13:26

tdgeek:

6FIEND:

tdgeek:

$30?? That's a bit silly :-) ...

I guess that begs the question - what makes $20 overdue and "sensible" and what makes $30 silly? A decade ago, $20 would have been silly, and at some point in the future $30 will be "barely enough". What inputs need to go into the evaluation of what the appropriate amount should be?

...

That's not right at all

You cannot compare $20 a decade ago, with minimum wage earner going to $30 now, that's not well reasoned at all

I'm not trying to compare. I'm asking "what should determine the right amount?" and I'm framing the question within the boundaries of "silly" figures.

You said that $30 would be silly. You'll acknowledge that in the past $20 would have also been silly (I assume). So the "right" amount is something that will change over time... I was just looking to canvas thoughts on what metrics we should use to determine what the right amount should be?

tdgeek:

6FIEND:

tdgeek:

...Some seem to feel that the increase of the really low minimum pay for the lowest income earners in NZ isn't right, its bad for businesses. I don't believe that's correct as per the points I made.

I'm not going to argue that "it isn't right", but I can see how this move is going to increase the level of industrial action that we see in NZ over the next few years.

Minimum wage is the very least that you're allowed to pay your most unproductive workers. These workers have just been awarded a >%7 payrise for absolutely no reciprocal increase in their performance or output. (I'm not saying that it necessarily won't happen, only that it's not required in order to receive the extra income). For the remainder of the workforce, this will set a point of reference. If they (as more highly valued and remunerated employees) don't also receive similar or greater increases, they will feel less valued, and risk becoming disenfranchised. As has been alluded to earlier, the deal that the Nurses won for all their striking (and associated loss of income) now looks to be much less of a victory in the context of what has just been awarded to 210,000 kiwi workers. (who had already amassed >15% pay increases over the last 4yrs)

The pressure for middle-incomes to be lifted will be greatly increased. And naturally, this will also have an effect on upper-incomes too. This will cost businesses much more than $47/wk.

...You also cannot compare a 7% increase that is actually a little over one dollar, that's just a numbers game

You also cannot compare this to nurses or teacher who have been left behind, plus they have a lack of resource issue.

If they get a little over a dollar an hour now, that wont have employees on higher rates going after the employer. Its a minimum, baseline hourly rate, no more. That's probably the least well reasoned point. Unless those on 50k, 150k, 250k, ask for another $1-20 per hour??? There would be a need to satisfy those just above minimum wage though, they are the only ones who could and should feel let down

I made the comparison with nurses expressly because they have been historically left behind and suffer from understaffing issues. All of these factors had a bearing on the settlement that they negotiated, but none of those factors apply to the minimum wage increase.

I acknowledge that percentages are different from absolute dollar values, but that won't stop people (as already evidenced in this thread) seeing the 7% increase for minimum wage earners and setting their expectations for at least that much for themselves.

To use an example: An accounts clerk works in a local firm. In 2016, they earned $21.63/hr (42% above minimum wage at the time) The Clerk is responsible for coaching an office junior who is paid minimum wage. Perhaps the school leaver is hopeless. They spend 18months or so trying to get the person up to speed, the Clerk carrying the lion's share of the workload... fast forward to April 1 2019. The Clerk has been receiving pay increases for their good work and is now on $22.60/hr. The junior has just been let go, and a new one is recruited... The Clerk starts over with the new employee, but (despite all their effort and pay rises) now they are only being paid 28% above minimum wage. They perceive that, despite doing the work of two people, they're going backwards...

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#2148831 21-Dec-2018 13:40

All boats will rise with the tide incl clerks teachers and nurses

It’s about making a correction for years of land and house inflation. To bring us back to a basic living standard

6FIEND

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#2148833 21-Dec-2018 13:42

MikeB4:

What about the folks that serve at restaurants, McDonalds, Food Courts, clean toilets at Malls, work in thousands of small businesses, pick the food we eat.......... are they "your most unproductive workers".

Most of the time, no, these are not the most unproductive workers. That they are paid minimum wage instead of much more, is often incredibly unfair.

My point was, if an employer has correctly identified workers who are not performing (by whatever measure is appropriate to the role) and is accordingly paying them only minimum wage - then that employer is now compelled to pay these workers 7% more - even if their productivity is still below par.

It's not inconceivable that the cost incurred in doing so will limit that employer from rewarding their productive employees in a meaningful way.

MikeB4:

I am sorry if I am interpreting your post wrong but it comes across as someone who wants to maintain their gap away from the terrible low paid members of our society

I'm just trying to foster discussion on this Mike. It doesn't directly effect me in any way. I don't employ anyone, and I'm fortunate enough to be well removed from the minimum-wage coalface. You're attributing malice or self-interest where none exists.

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#2148836 21-Dec-2018 13:48

attewell: All boats will rise with the tide incl clerks teachers and nurses

It’s about making a correction for years of land and house inflation. To bring us back to a basic living standard

Again, New Zealand productivity gains have not made it back to workers as costs of living have risen. The boats do not rise with the tide in New Zealand or else you wouldn't need to keep lifting the minimum wage.

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#2148837 21-Dec-2018 13:49

There should be a logic to minimum wage metric.

Min wage should be that 2 adults with 2 kids working 40 hours each should be able to afford rent power food etc no extragagence

I would go a step further. And make different min wage in each city. Which can go up and down based on cost of living in each city
Which could incentivise some companies to move to lower wage cities in nz

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Eitsop

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#2148838 21-Dec-2018 13:50

GV27:
attewell: All boats will rise with the tide incl clerks teachers and nurses

It’s about making a correction for years of land and house inflation. To bring us back to a basic living standard

Again, New Zealand productivity gains have not made it back to workers as costs of living have risen. The boats do not rise with the tide in New Zealand or else you wouldn't need to keep lifting the minimum wage.

The tide is the minimum wage. If we lift this. Other wages will increase

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#2148839 21-Dec-2018 13:51

@6FIEND I misinterpreted your post and I most certainly apologize.

tdgeek

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#2148840 21-Dec-2018 13:53

6FIEND:

I'm not trying to compare. I'm asking "what should determine the right amount?" and I'm framing the question within the boundaries of "silly" figures.

You said that $30 would be silly. You'll acknowledge that in the past $20 would have also been silly (I assume). So the "right" amount is something that will change over time... I was just looking to canvas thoughts on what metrics we should use to determine what the right amount should be?

I made the comparison with nurses expressly because they have been historically left behind and suffer from understaffing issues. All of these factors had a bearing on the settlement that they negotiated, but none of those factors apply to the minimum wage increase.

I acknowledge that percentages are different from absolute dollar values, but that won't stop people (as already evidenced in this thread) seeing the 7% increase for minimum wage earners and setting their expectations for at least that much for themselves.

To use an example: An accounts clerk works in a local firm. In 2016, they earned $21.63/hr (42% above minimum wage at the time) The Clerk is responsible for coaching an office junior who is paid minimum wage. Perhaps the school leaver is hopeless. They spend 18months or so trying to get the person up to speed, the Clerk carrying the lion's share of the workload... fast forward to April 1 2019. The Clerk has been receiving pay increases for their good work and is now on $22.60/hr. The junior has just been let go, and a new one is recruited... The Clerk starts over with the new employee, but (despite all their effort and pay rises) now they are only being paid 28% above minimum wage. They perceive that, despite doing the work of two people, they're going backwards...

1. Right now, $30 is not far short of double the minimum wage, $16-50 to $30.00. If in the past when the minimum wage was $11.00, then going to $20 would be silly. $30 now is above the average wage so minimum to above average? The overriding factor is it's $1-20 per hour. As a percentage of PDI its zero as there is no PDI, we are talking about the bottommost wage. Yes, some want 7%, and thats my point. It IS 7% but it IS $1-20.

1. As I said, there will be issues with those on low wages but above minimum wage, maintaining that. But above that, many of us must surely see this as making the lowest possible wage a bit higher, not setting a percentage guidelines for wage talks and strikes. I'd like to think that many people will say good on them, it must be tough, now its just a little bit easier. Or are we all getting a bit mean these days? :-)

I just don't see the majority of employees using this as a target.

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#2148841 21-Dec-2018 13:55

attewell:
GV27:

attewell: All boats will rise with the tide incl clerks teachers and nurses

It’s about making a correction for years of land and house inflation. To bring us back to a basic living standard

Again, New Zealand productivity gains have not made it back to workers as costs of living have risen. The boats do not rise with the tide in New Zealand or else you wouldn't need to keep lifting the minimum wage.

The tide is the minimum wage. If we lift this. Other wages will increase

Presumably you are happy for products and services to cost more, or are you proposing that businesses will absorb this? (Will you support NZ Businesses rather than buying from Alixexpress where goods are made cheaper because they don't have as high wages)?If you will, then I'd suggest given the ever increasing amount of revenue Aliexpress is generating in this part of the world, then you'd be in the minority.

A fair number of services offered by minimum wage owners are supplied to the people consuming minimum wages.

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#2148842 21-Dec-2018 13:59

6FIEND:

My point was, if an employer has correctly identified workers who are not performing (by whatever measure is appropriate to the role) and is accordingly paying them only minimum wage - then that employer is now compelled to pay these workers 7% more - even if their productivity is still below par.

It's not inconceivable that the cost incurred in doing so will limit that employer from rewarding their productive employees in a meaningful way.

I must have missed that point, its very valid. But it still exists if the minimum wage wasn't increasing, the problem is I am stuck paying a worker who is useless. All we can do is no annual review payrise, but others will get a small increase. Over time that may solve it, but I feel that's more an employment problem than a wage problem

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#2148843 21-Dec-2018 14:00

From what I have seen and heard from the small businesses I work with, there isn't ONE that thinks raising the minimum wage is a bad idea. The problem is with how much and how fast. This is the basis by which most people object I believe.

Eitsop

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#2148850 21-Dec-2018 14:08

networkn: Presumably you are happy for products and services to cost more, or are you proposing that businesses will absorb this? (Will you support NZ Businesses rather than buying from Alixexpress where goods are made cheaper because they don't have as high wages)?If you will, then I'd suggest given the ever increasing amount of revenue Aliexpress is generating in this part of the world, then you'd be in the minority.

A fair number of services offered by minimum wage owners are supplied to the people consuming minimum wages.

Prices should increase, when GST increases, businesses don't absorb the price increase.. they pass on... same with minimum wage..

Those on Min wage shouldn't see a increase in costs from Rents/Power/Telecom/Petrol whch is the majority of living costs

We may see in an increase in food costs.. but that shouldn't be significant

And those who maybe buy a coffee may see more of an increase than most..

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#2148856 21-Dec-2018 14:25

attewell:

networkn: Presumably you are happy for products and services to cost more, or are you proposing that businesses will absorb this? (Will you support NZ Businesses rather than buying from Alixexpress where goods are made cheaper because they don't have as high wages)?If you will, then I'd suggest given the ever increasing amount of revenue Aliexpress is generating in this part of the world, then you'd be in the minority.

A fair number of services offered by minimum wage owners are supplied to the people consuming minimum wages.

Prices should increase,

Those on Min wage shouldn't see a increase in costs from Rents/Power/Telecom/Petrol whch is the majority of living costs

We may see in an increase in food costs.. but that shouldn't be significant

And those who maybe buy a coffee may see more of an increase than most..

That's a pretty simplistic view. Households require many more things that than. Clothing, vehicle running costs, etc etc.

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