Brexit - Part 3? British elections 2017

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#1797618 10-Jun-2017 10:07

Although I'm no Corbyn supporter I can't agree that he stole the election. He just did what almost every politician in his position would do, he promised everything to everybody.

With such a short, interrupted campaign it wasn't possible for those promises to be put under the spotlight so he can get away with it but a longer campaign period with a more adept campaign from the Tories may have produced a different result.

And he still lost, both seats and popular vote, seats by quite a large number. He was coming from a long way back so his result probably has a rosier glow than it should.

If Cameron had distanced himself from the Brexit campaign and result he could have stayed on as PM with George Osbourne as Chancellor and IMO they would have provided a much sterner test for Corbyn.

What's so depressing for me is the complete lack of inspiring leadership in the UK from all sides. May looks and acts like someone out of the 1950's and Corbyn wants to take the country back to the 1970's. Even Tony Blair who ended up being universally despised started out by being inspirational.

Geektastic

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#1797619 10-Jun-2017 10:08

ScuL:
Geektastic:

Incorrect. The notice is procedural and begins a 2 year countdown, at the end of which the UK is out of the EU. The law is very clear on that. There is no more choice as to whether Britain leaves unless all the other member states agreed and Britain had another referendum and another parliamentary vote - and, according to the highest court in the UK, not even then.

All else being equal, Britain is out at the end of the 2 years, deal or no deal, unless all 27 agreed to extend that negotiating period. The Treaty itself reads

"3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period."

You're saying two completely contradicting things in the same post.

A) There is no more choice
B) There is choice unless all 27 agreed or there is another referendum / vote

The reality is that nobody has done this before and I am convinced there are still many more hurdles to come

May hasn't done anything to make the entire process any easier

No, I'm saying the Supreme Court says there is no choice unless the Treaty itself was amended by all parties. As it stands, after two years the UK is out, deal or no deal.

Certainly there are negotiation hurdles but the simple answer is that, in absentio an alternative deal being agreed, Britain leaves and reverts to WTO rules for trade with the EU after the two years is up. I

lxsw20

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#1797622 10-Jun-2017 10:18

networkn:

Corbyn targeted a large group of typically short term thinking voters (Not a critism per se, it happens because of circumstance) and promised them the earth. Sounds like a stolen election to me.

And yet Kensington, the wealthiest constituency in all of the UK now has a Labour MP.

MikeB4

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#1797623 10-Jun-2017 10:23

lxsw20:

networkn:

Corbyn targeted a large group of typically short term thinking voters (Not a critism per se, it happens because of circumstance) and promised them the earth. Sounds like a stolen election to me.

And yet Kensington, the wealthiest constituency in all of the UK now has a Labour MP.

And Canterbury changed after 100 years, Democracy in action, love it.

SJB

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#1797637 10-Jun-2017 11:02

lxsw20:

networkn:

Corbyn targeted a large group of typically short term thinking voters (Not a critism per se, it happens because of circumstance) and promised them the earth. Sounds like a stolen election to me.

And yet Kensington, the wealthiest constituency in all of the UK now has a Labour MP.

Apparently it does have pockets of deprivation although where I can't imagine. And of course London is very strongly in the Brexit remain camp so will tend to vote against the party may create a hard Brexit.

Fred99

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#1797689 10-Jun-2017 12:34

networkn:

Fred99:

networkn:

Crisis "averted", TM will form a Govt.

A very weak government - much weaker that she hoped for and polls told her she would get.

Great news for the world.

What was your preferred outcome?

Quite happy to see predictions of an overwhelming victory to the Conservatives wrong - especially when they called a snap election wanting and expecting a mandate for an authoritarian agenda.

Call it the Trump effect perhaps, as with other European elections, liberals seem to have been motivated to vote - highest turnout in 25 years.

gzt

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#1797701 10-Jun-2017 13:19

networkn:
Corbyn has effectively "stolen" this election by promising free education just like Labour did those years ago. Without it, I wonder what his voting numbers look like.

I'd guess many of his votes came from euro moderates. Brexit was never a particularly sensible position. Looking at education tho does seem a bit on the high side:

Wikipedia: In England, tuition fees are capped at £9,250 a year for UK and EU students, with around 76% of all institutions charging the full amount in 2015-16.[15] A loan of the same size is available for most universities, although students of private institutions are only eligible for £6,000 a year loans.

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allio

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#1798306 12-Jun-2017 09:09

networkn:

I honestly despair at the ... (trying to find a fug friendly way of describing these voters) idiots voting in the extremes in the hope something magical will happen in the world, when in fact they are just making it worse. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but I am honestly horrified at what world my kids will be teenagers and adults in.

You're absolutely right. Thankfully, fewer of those short-sighted idiots voted for the Tories this time round. Sanity is beginning to prevail, and maybe there's hope for the world's children after all. Maybe they'll even be able to buy a house one day...

By the way, if you let go of your position that increased taxes on the very wealthy are the worst thing in the entire world, Corbyn wasn't promising anything inherently unrealistic or unachievable. The UK under Corbyn would still be substantially to the right of Scandinavia, which leads the world on virtually every quality of life measure.

networkn

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#1798312 12-Jun-2017 09:16

allio:

networkn:

I honestly despair at the ... (trying to find a fug friendly way of describing these voters) idiots voting in the extremes in the hope something magical will happen in the world, when in fact they are just making it worse. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but I am honestly horrified at what world my kids will be teenagers and adults in.

You're absolutely right. Thankfully, fewer of those short-sighted idiots voted for the Tories this time round. Sanity is beginning to prevail, and maybe there's hope for the world's children after all. Maybe they'll even be able to buy a house one day...

By the way, if you let go of your position that increased taxes on the very wealthy are the worst thing in the entire world, Corbyn wasn't promising anything inherently unrealistic or unachievable. The UK under Corbyn would still be substantially to the right of Scandinavia, which leads the world on virtually every quality of life measure.

My position that increased taxes on the very wealthy? I have no issues with that, never said I did. I am not in favour of tax cuts, if a country has a surplus it should spend it on healthcare and education.

Perhaps you might consider a little less sarcasm and assumption with your morning coffee.

old3eyes

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#1798314 12-Jun-2017 09:17

allio:

networkn:

I honestly despair at the ... (trying to find a fug friendly way of describing these voters) idiots voting in the extremes in the hope something magical will happen in the world, when in fact they are just making it worse. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but I am honestly horrified at what world my kids will be teenagers and adults in.

You're absolutely right. Thankfully, fewer of those short-sighted idiots voted for the Tories this time round. Sanity is beginning to prevail, and maybe there's hope for the world's children after all. Maybe they'll even be able to buy a house one day...

By the way, if you let go of your position that increased taxes on the very wealthy are the worst thing in the entire world, Corbyn wasn't promising anything inherently unrealistic or unachievable. The UK under Corbyn would still be substantially to the right of Scandinavia, which leads the world on virtually every quality of life measure.

A vote for Corbyn would be a vote for bankruptcy. He wants to go back to the 1950s and nationalize everything and allow immigration to continue as the rate it was .. Corbyn a self proclaimed Marxist.

Regards,

Old3eyes

frankv

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#1798335 12-Jun-2017 09:43

old3eyes:

He wants to go back to the 1950s and nationalize everything and allow immigration to continue as the rate it was .. Corbyn a self proclaimed Marxist.

You say that like you think it's a bad thing.

allio

885 posts

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#1798343 12-Jun-2017 10:11

networkn:

My position that increased taxes on the very wealthy? I have no issues with that, never said I did. I am not in favour of tax cuts, if a country has a surplus it should spend it on healthcare and education.

Perhaps you might consider a little less sarcasm and assumption with your morning coffee.

Apologies - think I confused you with Geektastic, who very much does hold that position.

If you have no issues with Corbyn's plan to raise taxes on the wealthy, why are you so against his plan to increase social spending (e.g. free education)? You've made it clear you view that as an unforgiveable "bribe" rather than a legitimate policy.

Fred99

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#1798347 12-Jun-2017 10:24

frankv:

old3eyes:

He wants to go back to the 1950s and nationalize everything and allow immigration to continue as the rate it was .. Corbyn a self proclaimed Marxist.

You say that like you think it's a bad thing.

Not quite sure how Corbyn's wish to re-nationalise utilities like rail managed to transmorph into nationalise "everything" - but there you go. Probably an example of fake news in action from the ever-hysterical UK tabloids.

SJB

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#1798348 12-Jun-2017 10:25

The problem is not Corbyn's policies it's the cost of implementing them. Nobody would argue it's not a good idea to have free higher education, world class free health care even cheaper travel on a nationalised railway system but who is going to pay for it long term.

It's not just a one off cost, it's year after year. Once you have taxed the wealthy out of existence, then done the same to the affluent middle class the only option is to borrow the money needed and that's just kicking the can down the road and saddling your children and their children with crippling national debts.

frankv

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#1798409 12-Jun-2017 12:26

SJB:

The problem is not Corbyn's policies it's the cost of implementing them. Nobody would argue it's not a good idea to have free higher education, world class free health care even cheaper travel on a nationalised railway system but who is going to pay for it long term.

The rich who currently avoid/evade tax would be a good place to start. Then the corporates like Apple. If they paid their share instead of just leeching on society, there would be more than enough money to pay for it.

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