Young Labour Summer Camp

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Forums › Politics › Young Labour Summer Camp - Feb 2018

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Networkn
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#1974262 13-Mar-2018 21:40

So the crux of your argument is : naughty Labour for allowing people to drink when underage, but everything else was a media and anti labour beatup? It was ok for Kirton to handle things the way he did, Woods did nothing wrong in failing to let JA know? She shouldn't have stood anyone down whilst an investigation was held, and she was justified in clearing Kirton prior to said investigation?

Fred99

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#1974273 13-Mar-2018 22:12

networkn:

So the crux of your argument is : naughty Labour for allowing people to drink when underage, but everything else was a media and anti labour beatup? It was ok for Kirton to handle things the way he did, Woods did nothing wrong in failing to let JA know? She shouldn't have stood anyone down whilst an investigation was held, and she was justified in clearing Kirton prior to said investigation?

No that's not the "crux of my argument at all". A succession of straw man creations punctuated with question marks won't elicit a more explicit answer. Try again if you like. Quoting a post in this thread where I mentioned Kirton, Woods, or Ardern by name might be a start - that's a free tip for you, offered with a more honest intent than you ever offer me.

mrfte

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#1974344 14-Mar-2018 08:02

Meanwhile...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/102237347/second-sexual-assault-allegation-surfaces-for-labour-party

rjt123

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#1975352 14-Mar-2018 08:45

Fred99:
Take a look at the NZ Herald website front page now, and the entire story has disappeared. We love to flay the media here (often me included), but I do believe they "get it" eventually sometimes in terms of responsible journalism when they thought they had the scoop of the century - but on reflection it probably wasn't.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12012342

I don't think we've heard the last of this one yet...

freitasm

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#1976344 14-Mar-2018 08:57

"He also addressed speculation that the 20-year-old culprit at the summer camp is the son of a Labour minister. Kirton said while he did not know all the 20-year-old 's family links, "I'm certain that's not the case.""

If this happens to be the case and later it is found he is lying, that would be the end of Labour.

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6FIEND

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#1976347 14-Mar-2018 09:07

freitasm: "He also addressed speculation that the 20-year-old culprit at the summer camp is the son of a Labour minister. Kirton said while he did not know all the 20-year-old 's family links, "I'm certain that's not the case.""

If this happens to be the case and later it is found he is lying, that would be the end of Labour.

Interesting - the next sentence in the article states:

Kirton said while he did not know all the 20-year-old 's family links, "I'm certain that's not the case."

A spokesman for Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said he did not believe that was accurate.

The internal contradiction seems quite telling.

EDIT - Oops - it's more likely that they were referring to the speculation, not Kirton's comments.

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Pumpedd

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#1976348 14-Mar-2018 09:11

Fred99:

networkn:

So the crux of your argument is : naughty Labour for allowing people to drink when underage, but everything else was a media and anti labour beatup? It was ok for Kirton to handle things the way he did, Woods did nothing wrong in failing to let JA know? She shouldn't have stood anyone down whilst an investigation was held, and she was justified in clearing Kirton prior to said investigation?

No that's not the "crux of my argument at all". A succession of straw man creations punctuated with question marks won't elicit a more explicit answer. Try again if you like. Quoting a post in this thread where I mentioned Kirton, Woods, or Ardern by name might be a start - that's a free tip for you, offered with a more honest intent than you ever offer me.

You are being nasty now. You have already been invited to leave this thread. You have dug your hole now leave!!!

Fred99

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#1976350 14-Mar-2018 09:15

rjt123:
Fred99:

Take a look at the NZ Herald website front page now, and the entire story has disappeared. We love to flay the media here (often me included), but I do believe they "get it" eventually sometimes in terms of responsible journalism when they thought they had the scoop of the century - but on reflection it probably wasn't.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12012342

I don't think we've heard the last of this one yet...

Not now the police can do something.

Some serious fish hooks there as well, one being the rumour that the alleged offender was son of a politician, if for any good reason a judge decided that there should be name suppression, conspiracy theorists will go wild.

Another being given the publicity, unless there's a serious charge, a court case, a guilty verdict, and a harsh sentence, conspiracy theorists will also run rampant.

rjt123

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#1976354 14-Mar-2018 09:36

Fred99:
rjt123:
Fred99:

Take a look at the NZ Herald website front page now, and the entire story has disappeared. We love to flay the media here (often me included), but I do believe they "get it" eventually sometimes in terms of responsible journalism when they thought they had the scoop of the century - but on reflection it probably wasn't.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12012342

I don't think we've heard the last of this one yet...

Not now the police can do something.

Some serious fish hooks there as well, one being the rumour that the alleged offender was son of a politician, if for any good reason a judge decided that there should be name suppression, conspiracy theorists will go wild.

Another being given the publicity, unless there's a serious charge, a court case, a guilty verdict, and a harsh sentence, conspiracy theorists will also run rampant.

Of course. While technically this is simply a case of abuse, in reality it's actually a political scandal. Political scandals happen across the spectrum (see the "so it begins..." thread for example). You just have to wait for them to run their course.

Of course there are conspiracies, speculations etc. I mean this is the media we are dealing with, we can't expect just facts...

But in a political scandal like this, human animal instinct comes to the fore and people are out to kill. We just want heads to roll, not for any good reason or logic, just because... and the media love it too.

That might sound callous and dis-respectful to the victims, which isn't my intention. But this thread is essentially as much about the politics as the crime

Fred99

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#1976367 14-Mar-2018 10:02

Pumpedd:

You are being nasty now. You have already been invited to leave this thread. You have dug your hole now leave!!!

I expressed an unpopular opinion, then had it turned to suggest that I was apologising / excusing what the alleged offender is claimed to have done - and the response (or lack of) from the party and organisers of the event.

Now you're saying that refuting those claims was "being nasty"?

How about arguing against the things I have said - rather than attack me, for example:

I believe that it was fact that the police could not legally act based on third party reports of the alleged events.

I believe that if they do act based on a complaint by a victim 16 years old, then the police are under no obligation to inform the parents of the victim. Expert advice from people working in agencies supporting victims of sexual assault confirm that as a general rule, the harm already caused to the victim is at risk of being exacerbated if they do.

As far as my opinion on that goes - I'm a parent, and for sure I'd also be outraged to not be told that something like that had happened. But that doesn't change the law, nor the validity of what the experts have been saying - and saying that with the primary objective of safeguarding the victim(s).

I've stated that police could have acted on the reports of alcohol being available to minors. I also stated that I'm not surprised that something like that happened at an event where teenagers had access to alcohol. That's been turned by the mob in here to claim that I'm arguing that the flouting of alcohol laws was more serious than the alleged sexual assaults. I most certainly didn't.

I haven't commented much (or at all?) about the part the Labour party officials involved had in this. I don't know enough about the circumstances to comment, I didn't come in here to partake in a partisan battle, if circumstances were as some are claiming, then the Labour party will get what it thoroughly deserves - and I won't be defending them.

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#1976397 14-Mar-2018 10:53

There clearly has been a Labour Party cover up here to protect themselves rather than the Labour Party minors who were abused.

It seems alcohol has been served at these functions for many years and that sexual abuse has been rife according to a former Labour Party Chairman.

I am aghast at Don Brash for saying that this has been overplayed in the media!!! It has only been overplayed because it has been covered up from the very top down. Indeed it is a very sensitive issue, but the party has shown no real sensitivity towards those hurt here. Heads must roll now.

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rjt123

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#1976401 14-Mar-2018 11:01

Assistant Commissioner (Investigations) Richard Chambers:

"We continue to encourage anyone with information they wish to discuss with police, or matters they wish to report, to contact us," he said.

"Our priority is to ensure that anyone who wishes to speak with us can feel comfortable in doing so, and to ensure that appropriate support services are available."

It seems that police's perspective is to talk to them about it, rather than keep it to yourself. Contrasts with the labour party's ideas...

Geektastic

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#1976422 14-Mar-2018 11:29

rjt123: Assistant Commissioner (Investigations) Richard Chambers:

"We continue to encourage anyone with information they wish to discuss with police, or matters they wish to report, to contact us," he said.

"Our priority is to ensure that anyone who wishes to speak with us can feel comfortable in doing so, and to ensure that appropriate support services are available."

It seems that police's perspective is to talk to them about it, rather than keep it to yourself. Contrasts with the labour party's ideas...

I'm not sure I like the logical extension of the Police remarks. It suggests that if you are not comfortable with speaking about it (whatever it is) then the alleged crime may as well not have existed.

Whether a crime is committed or not is not down to whether the person against whom it may have been committed is "comfortable talking about it".

freitasm

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#1976431 14-Mar-2018 11:41

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/102248155/labour-president-nowhere-to-be-seen-during-party-sex-assault-allegations-debacle

The criticisms against the Labour Party cover a few bases, namely, whether police and parents should have been told immediately after the incident, why it took so long for the party to seek advice from a sexual violence prevention agency and why the prime minister wasn't told.

Kirton has accepted they could have done better on much of this - but while Haworth says he has "absolute confidence in Andrew" who was acting under his "full authority", he's been invisible in terms of publicly dealing with the fallout.

Clearly he's been working behind the scenes on the review that's set to be announced, but nothing about this week's revelations have been small-fry.

Haworth is the president and has been fully involved in deciding not to go to the police, not to tell the parents, not to tell Ardern and not to seek professional advice sooner.

He's just as culpable for the party's decisions in the matter as Kirton, if not more so.

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rjt123

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#1976437 14-Mar-2018 12:03

Pumpedd:
There clearly has been a Labour Party cover up here to protect themselves rather than the Labour Party minors who were abused.

It seems alcohol has been served at these functions for many years and that sexual abuse has been rife according to a former Labour Party Chairman.

I am aghast at Don Brash for saying that this has been overplayed in the media!!! It has only been overplayed because it has been covered up from the very top down. Indeed it is a very sensitive issue, but the party has shown no real sensitivity towards those hurt here. Heads must roll now.

Actually in the greater scheme of things this is not really that newsworthy. I personally want to see a big thing made of it. But when you consider the events unfolding in the northern hemisphere between UK and Russia, suddenly a petty political scandal seems kind of lame...

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